In this episode, Allie and Michelle discuss how we think about accessibility and the things we forget about being inclusive and open.
Episode Transcripts
Allie Nimmons:
Welcome to the Underrepresented in Tech podcast hosted by Michelle Frechette and Allie Nimmons. Underrepresented in Tech is a free database but with the goal of helping people find new opportunities in WordPress and tech overall.
Michelle Frechette:
Hi Allie.
Allie Nimmons:
Hi Michelle. Whenever I press record, I just sit here and I wait for you to say it.
Michelle Frechette:
I know it’s kind of our thing now.
Allie Nimmons:
Yeah. I love it.
Michelle Frechette:
I even say it to you when we’re not recording. I’m like, “Hi Allie.”
Allie Nimmons:
Hi Michelle. Every week we sit here for 10 or 15 minutes and we chat and catch up and kind of talk about what we want to talk about today. But it puts such a huge smile … When you say that, it’s just like, “We’re here.” It really feels we’re starting now and, I don’t know, it feels really great.
Michelle Frechette:
Absolutely. I feel completely the same way. Absolutely. So we have so many things that we could have talked about today.
Allie Nimmons:
Yeah. A lot has been happening in WordPress in the past week or two. There’s been a lot of stuff as [inaudible 00:01:05] was saying-
Michelle Frechette:
WP drama.
Allie Nimmons:
Basically, yeah.
Michelle Frechette:
And I’m not usually the person stirring up the WP drama, but I have had a little bit of a spoon in my hand, shall we say, over the last week. So I’m part of it.
Allie Nimmons:
Yeah, but what-
Michelle Frechette:
For good reason.
Allie Nimmons:
What I wanted to ask you about this week, and you all know we go off on tangents and we branch off into other things, but I wanted to start with the amazing talk that you gave. I mean I didn’t get to hear the talk. I looked at your slides and I was like obviously this was an amazing talk. The talk that you gave at WordCamp Montclair very recently which was your first, not counting state of the word, that was your first in person-
Michelle Frechette:
That was the first WordCamp, yeah.
Allie Nimmons:
… WordPress event. Wow.
Michelle Frechette:
Yeah. It felt good.
Allie Nimmons:
I’m jealous.
Michelle Frechette:
It felt good. I will say it was good. I probably went outside four times during that day just to be able to take my mask off and take a deep breath because being masked all day does feel claustrophobic. So it causes me to feel claustrophobic. So I’ll go into the bathroom, I’ll take it off in the bathroom stall. I’ll go outside and take it off and just breathe outside for a few minutes but you do get used to it and it’s not as terrible as I thought it would be. Working at home, you don’t wear masks and on the airplane you can or you can’t, that kind of thing.
Michelle Frechette:
But the event itself like major, major kudos to the organizing team. They had thought of everything. All of the food, there was no like put your hands in and grab salad with tongs or anything. Everything was prepackaged. Breakfast was in a box. Lunch was in a box. All of that was phenomenal. Masks were required to be worn everywhere. There was hand sanitizer everywhere. You couldn’t have asked for a better opportunity to feel safe as far as COVID and spreading germs goes.
Michelle Frechette:
Now, I do have laryngitis and before anybody says, “Oh, she caught COVID at WordCamp Montclair,” I didn’t actually. I talked over crowds and if you know me and you know me at WordCamp, I talk a lot and to be heard over music, oh my gosh, the music was so loud at the speaker sponsor dinner. I talked so loud and I talked so much that I actually came up with laryngitis. And I did test yesterday just to be sure, four days after the event, and there is no COVID in my system.
Michelle Frechette:
So I just wanted to put that out there. It was a safe event. I did not catch COVID. I have not heard that anybody did.
Allie Nimmons:
I’m glad.
Michelle Frechette:
I’ll just kind of put that out there, but yeah, they were phenomenal. The signage was perfect. The instructions on their site was perfect. The lineup of speakers, the sponsors that were there, everything was just super, super impressive. And one of the lead organizers DMed me, I think Monday, said, “Hey, thank you so much for coming to WordCamp Montclair. Is there any feedback? We’re going to send a survey, whatever, but is there any feedback specifically that you can give us to make sure that this is a more inclusive event?” Especially because, if you don’t know, I use a mobility device at things like this. So I have my little scooter which Allie likes to run into tables and whatever, but I have my scooter that I use to navigate.
Allie Nimmons:
[inaudible 00:04:15].
Michelle Frechette:
And when you’re navigating with a mobility device, it comes with its own set of challenges and so they wanted to make sure that everything was as good as it could possibly be. So I was able to give them a little bit of feedback, but mostly 99.9% great stuff.
Michelle Frechette:
Just the building that we used, though, they don’t own the building so that’s not their building but the building that was used, the stage was accessible with my scooter. I could go backstage and get right on the stage. I could get in and out of the bathrooms. There were no stairs in and out of the building, but none of the doors had motorized doors. So I had to ask people to open doors all day every day, including to go to the ladies’ room. So just if you are building a building, if you can retrofit a building, I’m just going to say if there’s a way to wave your hand in front of a sensor for a ladies’ room door, if there’s a button you can push … It’s embarrassing when you don’t know people.
Michelle Frechette:
I don’t get embarrassed easily. So I’m speaking for others when I say that, but it can be very embarrassing if you have to ask people you don’t know to open the door to the ladies’ room, because everybody knows why you’re going into a ladies’ room. It’s not like you’re going to go get a drink. You’re going to pee. So it just can be one of those sticky spots for people. So that really was my only feedback, that and tone the music down at the speaker sponsor dinner.
Allie Nimmons:
Yeah.
Michelle Frechette:
But it was awesome.
Allie Nimmons:
Yeah, I’m Jealous. I heard it was really great. a couple other friends in addition to you were there and I was super, super jealous. So I’m glad … Yeah, kudos to the team. I’m glad that it went really well and I’m glad we haven’t been hearing that a ton of people got COVID and I mean, even if that was the case, it sounds like they did everything that they could do to make it safe [inaudible 00:05:56].
Michelle Frechette:
Yeah, at that point it’s like you touch something in an airport or, if you’re traveling, you’re taking those chances for sure.
Allie Nimmons:
Yeah, if you’re staying in a hotel … There’s going to be factors outside of what the organizing team can do at all times. Right?
Michelle Frechette:
Absoutely. Every Uber or Lyft you get in and out of, for example, has people touching door handles and whatever.
Allie Nimmons:
But I was curious about the talk that you gave. You talked about accessibility but you kind of tried to reframe it. Right?
Michelle Frechette:
Right.
Allie Nimmons:
I feel we walk through life with all of these preconceived notions and ideas about what words mean. And I think a lot of people, particularly in tech, when they think about accessibility, they think of accessibility overlays and color contrast and screen readers and things that, the technical side of things that are really focused on visuals, like people who might not have the best vision or have no vision or low vision or all those things. And you reframed accessibility in some different ways, which I think is really interesting.
Allie Nimmons:
So for people who didn’t get to actually be at your talk and listen to it and all of that good stuff, can you talk a little bit about what you talked about in that talk?
Michelle Frechette:
Yeah.
Allie Nimmons:
I just said talk a lot.
Michelle Frechette:
My talk, when I talked in my talk about things that I was talking about … So the talk starts off by saying yes, absolutely, the things that we do to make our websites accessible are absolutely important. So it was not to downplay any of that. It’s to complement and add to that, right? So absolutely go out and make your sites as accessible as possible. This is not a talk against that but what this talk was about is how do we make more than just our websites accessible. How do we make our communities accessible? How do we make events accessible? How do we make everything that we do, whether we’re putting on an event, we’re looking for organizers, we’re looking for speakers, no matter what we’re doing, how can we make those things more open and more inclusive? So when I’m using the term accessible to that, I mean how do we actually not just say it’s an inclusive event but make it an inclusive event.
Michelle Frechette:
And so I started talking about … I can’t remember now, all my notes in front of me, but I talk about how do we make an event more inclusive. So, let’s say, you’re putting on a WordCamp or you’re putting on an in-person meet-up … I’m going to stick to in-person for right now for the sake of this conversation, but yes, it still is about disability accessibility. So if I get to your place and there’s stairs there, well, now I’ve got to figure out … So I can leave the scooter in the car and I can use a cane, but am I going to be walking so far that I literally can’t do it? Can I go up a couple stairs? And maybe I can but maybe somebody else can’t use their legs at all and can’t access it. So are there curb cuts?
Michelle Frechette:
I talked about WordCamp US in Nashville and for people who are able bodied, it’s still they were like, “Wow, this is a long walk.” Well, for somebody walking with a cane, because at the time that’s what I was using, who’s running out of breath and whose legs and back are about to collapse, it was probably a quarter mile walk from where the-
Allie Nimmons:
Wow.
Michelle Frechette:
… I can’t think of the words now … where the vendor room was, the hallway track was, to where lunch was served. So by the time I got to lunch, because you had to go all the way basically one city block and then halfway down the other one because the event space took up an entire city block in Nashville. And so you’re talking about a quarter of a mile there at least. By the time I got there, I was already stressing about having to walk back.
Michelle Frechette:
So yeah, I could eat but now my knees are already hurting. My back’s already hurting. Is that really accessible? It’s all indoors. There are no steps, but no, it’s not really accessible for people who have mobility issues. Now, if I was in a wheelchair, if I was using my scooter, no problem at all because I’m sitting down and I can get there, but there are walker users. There are cane users. There are people who may not even be using an assistive device but still have difficulty walking distances.
Michelle Frechette:
At the next in-person WordCamp which was in St. Louis, I said in Nashville it was difficult if not next to impossible to get from one space to the next because everything was so spread out through that building. In St. Louis, is everything near to itself so that if somebody’s using a cane or a walker, they can get easily from one place to the next. And I was assured that it was but it wasn’t because the people who reviewed those are able bodied walkers, people who go for walks for fun, those kinds of things. And to them, it didn’t seem that far. But to somebody who has to use a cane or who can’t walk long distances, it was still. And luckily I had a scooter for WordCamp US that year, but if I hadn’t, I would’ve been hurting and I would not have been able to participate to the extent that I did. And so think about those things as far as just physical accessibility.
Michelle Frechette:
But then I moved on to talk about how do we make the table … We talk about the figurative table, right? Make room at the table, slide over, make room at the table. So how do you make your work, make your event, make your podcast or your blog, how do you make that more inclusive? And talking about ways to make sure that there are a variety of voices at that table and why it’s important to do that. So I used the example … and you’re so young Allie, but I wasn’t old enough to have known this either, but we’ve all seen these ads of an ad from the ’50s of a woman in the pointy bra, the high heels and the pearls with a huge smile on her face as she vacuums the rug with her Hoover vacuum. And let’s be honest, those ads were not aimed at women, right?
Michelle Frechette:
Because no woman says, “Oh yeah, that looks how I want to clean my house. That’s what I want for my birthday. Please don’t give me the pearls. Give me the Hoover.” And how that was during the Mad Men type era when men were making all of these decisions about what advertising looks like and once women started to join those advertising boards and things that, it changed. Now it’s about how much help does having a vacuum cleaner in my house make, how much more quickly can I pick up the cereal that the kids spilled or the cat hair or the dog hair, whatever, because it’s about ease and making my life easier, not like, “Oh, look how sexy I look. Let’s buy a Hoover vacuum.”
Michelle Frechette:
So when you invite people to be part of decision making in your organization, you get more sales because more people with different experiences, different parts of life, whether it’s an older woman, a younger man, somebody from different ethnic backgrounds, somebody from different country, you get those inputs about how they use your product.
Michelle Frechette:
We talked before about that the [inaudible 00:13:09] had in their super admin, he shall have or he will be da, da, da, and how somebody said, “Oh, can we change that?” And they did. They were responsive right away because, for them, it was a language issue too so it was just looking at language. And as soon as somebody said, “Can you fix it?”, they did. It’s being able to ask those questions before somebody has to ask you to fix it. It’s being able to have people at the table who say, “Oh, we might want to rethink the way we do that.” And so inviting people within your company and through recruiting and hiring who are more inclusive to be able to make your product better, you will see sales increase when you know that things are accessible to more people.
Michelle Frechette:
And your events, is it enough to just have people who are speakers that are underrepresented? No, of course not. You want people on the team that are underrepresented. You want the organizers. If I had been part of the group that had reviewed the space, I would’ve said, “These rooms are way too spaced out. There’s no way somebody who’s using a cane can access these all quickly without feeling overburdened.” And so having somebody in that space to be able to do those things and to be able to represent more than just the cis white male who usually sits in the decision making seats is super important.
Michelle Frechette:
I ended the talk by saying, “I got a huge surprise for you all. The table isn’t real. It’s not limited.” Like when I was growing up, my dad was one of 11 kids and when we all got together, all those families got together for Thanksgiving, we were trying to figure out who could sit at the big kids table, who could sit at the grownups table and there wasn’t room. You could not fit one more chair at that Thanksgiving table, but our boardroom tables … This is figurative. We can include the people that need to be included without pushing anybody else out. There is room at an imaginary table, because you could just make it bigger.
Allie Nimmons:
Yeah, exactly. All of that makes so much sense and I’m glad that you gave that talk and people were able to hear all of that because it’s so important. I mean we say this stuff all the time. This is not the first time that you’ve said any of these things but talking about it consistently and reminding people consistently of these ideas is how we create change. And I think that that is happening right now on a, I was going to say global scale, but on a much larger scale, right? People are becoming more and more aware of the fact that you have to include other people. You have to include other perspectives because, especially when it comes to, like you said, sales and marketing and things that, you can really put your foot in it when you don’t have those perspectives.
Allie Nimmons:
How many times have I seen a brand tweet about something and it’s just like, wow, you used that slang word that means XYZ. If you had had a younger person on the team or if you had had a gay person on the team, they would’ve told you that slang word is, or that word that you thought meant one thing means something totally different and maybe you shouldn’t have used that.
Allie Nimmons:
I mean just recently, we’re going through this really awful abortion conversation in this country right now. And the other day, I’m not going to name the brand but you could tell it was a scheduled tweet and it made a joke having to do with giving birth basically. Any other day, it would’ve been a totally harmless joke but it’s nine out of 10 women, if they had looked at that tweet before it went out, they would’ve said, “Yeah, we can’t post that today. We can’t post that right now.”
Michelle Frechette:
Right, yeah. It’s tone deaf.
Allie Nimmons:
Exactly.
Michelle Frechette:
Or worse.
Allie Nimmons:
Super tone deaf. And people are very responsive to that sort of stuff. We’re becoming less and less willing to just be like, “Oh, well, it was an accident.” People take it very seriously because we are looking for authenticity from our brands. We are looking to understand who are the people behind this account and so when it’s obvious who the people are, people get very upset.
Michelle Frechette:
Yeah, absolutely, and that’s why when we have people review the things that we’re putting out … So if I have somebody review all the social media I’m putting out for different companies or read over a post that’s going to be published, whether it’s post status or one of the stellar brands or whatever, we are not just reading for typographical errors. We’re also reading for content and we’re also reading for intent and sometimes it’s very obvious that when somebody’s written something, that wasn’t actually their intent. Because, like you said, they’re misusing a word or something and that’s where we can help one another out is absolutely reading things over.
Michelle Frechette:
You and I have talked before about that application. Well, one of the things that you and I do is we evaluate for people. They can hire us to look at their recruiting and one of the applications that I had looked at prior to us even having Underrepresented in Tech, use three words … and I talked about this in my talk too, is it gave the job description. It was all about recruiting for this job description. But then it used the phrase, “If you think this might be a good fit for you, apply below.” And I said, “Why are you starting to put doubt in people’s mind?”
Michelle Frechette:
Now, a cis white male doesn’t for the most part, and yes, I understand that not … I’m not speaking of every man because it’s not all men but mostly women, and I can’t speak to ethnic minorities, so you would have to chime in on that but I know women, especially in my age group, if you say, “If you think, if you think, if you might,” those are three words that start to put doubt in my head. And so, “Maybe I’m not a good fit for this position.” And now maybe you have actually just taken somebody out of running for this role or applying for this role who could have been phenomenal and also increased your diversity by having women on your team.
Michelle Frechette:
So think about those kinds of things. Have somebody else read it over because what might seem innocuous to you isn’t or might not be.
Allie Nimmons:
Yeah, and it’s so important to allow yourself … I feel like there are a lot of people who are afraid of hearing that they might have said something or written something insensitive, right? You have people who are like, “Well, I’m not a racist” or “I’m not a sexist and so I’m sure that this is fine, because I’m not X, Y, Z.” And we don’t appreciate how many unconscious biases we have.
Allie Nimmons:
I was just telling you a story about an unconscious bias that I had through a learned family thing and, as a result, the other day I posted something on Twitter and I used the word handicapped because I thought that was an okay word to use and it wasn’t. And a friend of mine was, “Really” and linked me to an article. And I was like, “What? I don’t get it.” And I looked at the article and it literally had a whole line that said, “Handicapped is no longer an acceptable descriptor. It’s condescending, it’s demeaning. Here are alternate words to use.” And I was like, “Oh my God, thank you so much for telling me that.” I was so embarrassed. I’m still embarrassed that I used that word and that I might have heard that person’s feelings.
Allie Nimmons:
And I was a little angry with myself that I do stuff like this. Like this podcast, I work in D&I stuff and I didn’t know that. I was super upset but it’s not about me. It’s about the people that I’m talking about, sometimes representing, and I just need to not use that word anymore. That’s the short and small of it and I’m so grateful to the people that I do have in my life, like you, who are willing to share their experiences and let me know when it’s like, “Hey, that’s not the best way to do that. Here’s a better way. We don’t like that word anymore. Here’s a better way.” I can never be offended by that because everyone makes mistakes. You don’t learn if you don’t make mistakes. Right?
Michelle Frechette:
Right, exactly.
Allie Nimmons:
And what really sucks is when people … I’m not going to go too far into this because this is a topic I want to save for another time but what really upsets me is when people get nasty. Like if somebody had replied to my tweet where I used the word handicapped and was like, “You B word, how dare you say that? You’re being so offensive.” Like if I just got completely tore apart, it would’ve absolutely broken my heart and it would’ve taken me so long to come back from that and I would’ve been scared to ever post anything like that ever, ever again, for fear of making a mistake and making people angry. And that’s not the goal. The goal is not to prevent people from speaking on these issues. It’s the exact opposite. We want people to tweet out questions and we want people to post job postings that describe the types of people that they want. We just want them to do it in an appropriate and informed manner.
Michelle Frechette:
Absolutely.
Allie Nimmons:
And so when people, particularly underrepresented people, jump down the throats of others for not doing things perfectly, it’s really self-defeating I think. I mean obviously there are exceptions, if a person is intentionally being a jerk and intentionally using wrong words. You just wrote a whole post about those kinds of instances where people really double down on not using the right language and so on. Yeah, those people deserve to be yelled at. But if it’s an individual who has made a mistake, they deserve to be helped and that’s a lot of what we do with our services, right, is identifying that yes, you’ve probably made a few mistakes in this copy. We’re not here to yell at you about it. We’re here to give you a stronger option so that you can do better.
Michelle Frechette:
Absolutely, and we always say it’s about intent. So you can make mistakes, honest mistakes. Learn from them and move forward and be a better person. If you’re using words as a slur on purpose, that intent is entirely different.
Allie Nimmons:
Yeah. That’s a really good point too. I recently asked a friend of mine who is deaf because I was talking to him about an accessibility topic and I asked, “Can you remind me, do you prefer to be referred to as hard of hearing, deaf with a lowercase D, deaf with an uppercase D?” I know that there are different terms and different people like different things. And so he was like, “Deaf with a lowercase D is fine with me,” which that was appropriate, right? Because my intent was for this topic that we were discussing to represent him in the way that he wants to be represented.
Allie Nimmons:
And then you have people who will go up to a trans person and start asking them questions about their transition or-
Michelle Frechette:
They’re going to [inaudible 00:24:59].
Allie Nimmons:
… asking them what their dead name was or whatever. And it’s like, “What is your intent? Right now your intent is to be nosy.”
Allie Nimmons:
It is okay to ask those kinds of questions like I asked to my friend when you have the appropriate intent. And also he and I are friends. We have a rapport with each other. It just really baffles me when people just … yeah, when their intent is just to be nosy and so they start asking all of these questions.
Michelle Frechette:
Everybody gets curious, right? Everybody is curious about things. It doesn’t mean you have to have your curiosity fulfilled. You can stay curious about that. It’s none of your freaking business.
Allie Nimmons:
Absolutely. Every time I meet a trans person, I am super curious. I’m always curious like I wonder where you are in your transition. I wonder what you were before you transitioned. I get super curious because it’s an experience that I have not and will never go through personally. And as a diversity advocate, I feel this desire to learn about other people’s experiences so that I can be a better ally and be less ignorant. That being said, I’ve never asked any of those questions. If they offer that information to me, great. But I will never ask any of those questions because my curiosity is my problem at that point. It has nothing to do with the other person.
Michelle Frechette:
And they have no obligation to-
Allie Nimmons:
No obligation.
Michelle Frechette:
… fulfill your curiosity.
Allie Nimmons:
Not at all. I mean the closest I’ve ever done, they’re like trans actors that I’ve Googled what did they … Like Laverne Cox I remember Googling what did she look before she transitioned because I was curious. But yeah, it’s definitely not on the other person to … and I mean that goes for so many things. That goes for … So our friend Taylor who works for, I guess technically now she works for-
Michelle Frechette:
She’s still [inaudible 00:27:11].
Allie Nimmons:
I wasn’t sure if I was supposed to say Liquid Web or not, but she works at FWP. She is what, 30, almost 30-
Michelle Frechette:
She’s 31 almost.
Allie Nimmons:
… 31 and she uses a cane and she’s told me before that people have asked her, “If you’re so young, why are you using a cane? You don’t need that.” And it’s like mind your business. Mind your absolute business.
Michelle Frechette:
Absolutely.
Allie Nimmons:
I’ve had people ask me all sorts of questions. “What are you?” And all of these things and it’s just like, “Honestly, freaking please mind your business.”
Michelle Frechette:
Absoutely.
Allie Nimmons:
Asking questions like that does not, contrary to popular belief, won’t help you be a better ally.
Michelle Frechette:
No, it wouldn’t.
Allie Nimmons:
You’re a good ally when you’ve just decided, “I’m going to be a good ally.”
Michelle Frechette:
I will accept people-
Allie Nimmons:
Is that stupid to say?
Michelle Frechette:
I will accept people as they present themselves to me and honor them for who they are. Period.
Allie Nimmons:
Yeah, without needing their whole life story.
Michelle Frechette:
Exactly. Let’s talk about Black people in America for a second. Some people prefer to be called Black people. Some prefer to be Brown and some prefer African American. None of those are wrong terms but some of them are more or less right or wrong depending on the individual.
Michelle Frechette:
The same thing is true for people who are deaf or partially deaf. There’s a TikToker who’s got several million followers. She calls herself hearing impaired and she gets destroyed in the comments every time she says something about being hearing impaired because deaf people and other people who are part of the deaf community will say, “The right term is hard of hearing.” And she’ll say, “I’m self-identifying. I can call myself whatever I want.” Right? And so-
Allie Nimmons:
I’ve heard that same argument with autism. I think we talked about this a while ago on the podcast. There was a debate that I encountered that I didn’t even know existed between the difference between saying I am autistic or I am a person with autism.
Michelle Frechette:
Right.
Allie Nimmons:
And I remember seeing a Twitter thread where two people were on both sides of that fence and they were saying the same thing, “I self identify” or I think one of them, their son was autistic or had autism and they said, “This is what I’ve taught my son because of these reasons.” I never knew that there was even an option between the two and it did make me a little terrified of like, “Oh gosh, what if I refer to someone as autistic and they don’t identify that way?” And it just kind of circles back to the idea that for me to be a good ally to that person, I just have to do my best and accept the correction when it comes and hope that they will correct me in a way that’s not absolutely devastating to my self-esteem and all of that stuff.
Allie Nimmons:
And I think what I’d like to leave us off with is we’re never here to say all of this stuff is just so easy and you should be able to get it immediately and not have a problem. Some of it is hard and some of it is a little nerve-wracking when you don’t know the right word to use and we’re identifying that there’s so many facets of accessibility. It’s true. It is a big thing but it is unbelievably worth the effort to understand.
Michelle Frechette:
Absolutely.
Allie Nimmons:
And I think once you get over that hump, it becomes easier to understand because you’re willing to be open and do it.
Michelle Frechette:
Absolutely. And that’s what it’s all about. Right? That’s what inclusion’s about. That’s what acceptance is about. And that’s absolutely what allyship is about.
Allie Nimmons:
For sure.
Michelle Frechette:
Very cool.
Allie Nimmons:
All right.
Michelle Frechette:
Very cool. Wow. We get deep. We always get deep but we love it. That’s because we love our community. We love people and we want to make the place better. We want to make our community better so [inaudible 00:31:24].
Allie Nimmons:
Absolutely. All right, Michelle, it’s been a pleasure as always.
Michelle Frechette:
As always. Absolutely.
Allie Nimmons:
And we will see all of you next week for another episode.
Michelle Frechette:
Absolutely. Until then, take care.
Allie Nimmons:
Bye.
Allie Nimmons:
This episode was sponsored by the following companies:
Allie Nimmons:
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Allie Nimmons:
LearnDash. LearnDash is taking cutting edge e-learning methodology and infusing it into WordPress. More than just a plug-in, LearnDash is trusted to power the learning programs for major universities, small to mid-size companies, startups, entrepreneurs and bloggers worldwide.
Allie Nimmons:
If you’re interested in sponsoring an episode using our database, or just want to say hi, go to underrepresentedintech.com. See you next week.