Finding the Right Position (feat. Ebonie Butler)

Allie Nimmons:
Welcome to the Underrepresented in Tech podcast. Hosted by Michelle Frechette and Allie Nimmons. Underrepresented in Tech is a free database, but with the goal of helping people find new opportunities in WordPress and tech overall.
Good morning or maybe afternoon everybody. Welcome back to the Underrepresented in Tech podcast. This is Allie Nimmons today. I am unfortunately not joined by Michelle, but I am fortunate joined by my friend Ebonie Butler. Hi Ebonie.

Ebonie Butler:
Hi Allie, how you doing?

Allie Nimmons:
I’m super good. I’m so excited to be talking to you. This is really, really exciting. So I wanted to talk to you a little bit about your experiences as a black woman in the WordPress space. But first I would like you to introduce yourself to everyone listening in case there’s anyone out here who’s not familiar with you and your background and what you do, where you work, all that kind of stuff. Of course,

Ebonie Butler:
My name’s Ebonie Butler. I also go by Metal and Coffee on all my social medias. I am a WordPress developer at Yikes Inc. Philadelphia. It’s my first dev job ever. I was late career transitioner into the tech programming world. But I love it and I was able to grow so much. So I’m very excited to be here, to talk about this topic about what the workplace can do to amplify people of color in their workplace, for sure.

Allie Nimmons:
Awesome. Yeah. If you do look up Ebonie on Twitter, make sure you look up Metal and Coffee. I feel like every time I want to like DM you or find your profile, I always type in Ebony and I’m like why can’t I find her? And I remember your name is not in there.

Ebonie Butler:
Yeah.

Allie Nimmons:
Yeah. So I really wanted to talk to you, like you said about your workplace, because I know that Yikes Inc, I mean, I know the other people that work there, I know the individuals who started that company and it is a kind of revolutionary thing that y’all do. I unfortunately did not do all of my research before the call, but I know that Yikes has won like awards for being a diverse workplace. Is that right?

Ebonie Butler:
Yeah, that’s correct. I can’t place the exact year, but being just engulfed in the diversity, in general, as a workplace culture and making sure that everyone is supported strongly, they definitely hit the nail in the head of that.

Allie Nimmons:
Yeah, absolutely. Yikes is a certified women’s business enterprise by the Women’s Business Enterprise National Council in a certified LGBT business enterprise by the National Gay and Lesbian Chamber of Commerce, which is crazy and I love that. I should also say Yikes is or has been in the past sponsor of this podcast. But this is not a sponsor episode has nothing to do with that sponsorship. I just really wanted to talk to Ebony because I feel like a lot of companies and agencies in the tech space get kind of a bad rap for not being inclusive, not being diverse, not putting employees and devs front of mind. Even outside of WordPress like I know you and I are both big video game fans.

And game developers are constantly being overworked and taking advantage of and like all that kind of stuff. So like the tech industry overall has kind of a pretty bad reputation. And so it’s amazing and it’s so gratifying and fun to see a company like Yikes that just totally goes the other direction with that. Can you tell me a little bit about your experience at the company? Like what was it like joining that team? What has it been like being on that team? What do they do to support you as an underrepresented person in this community?

Ebonie Butler:
Yeah, of course. I guess I’ll take a little step back when I first got interviewed for Yikes. I did meet Tracy at a WordPress class that he was teaching. So I, as you can already tell, I was not a seasoned developer. I was still learning. I was learning how I needed. [crosstalk 00:04:28]

Allie Nimmons:
Tracy. Sorry, Tracy being the co-president and co-founder of Yikes.

Ebonie Butler:
Yes. Sorry I missed that. So I met her through class she was teaching and I guess through my display of learning in terms of like asking the right questions, being super, super motivated and kind of not exactly solving problems, but more so like digging deep enough to try to understand what I need to solve regardless of whether or not I solved it and in reasonable amount of time. She invited me into the office for an interview for an apprenticeship, which is basically a kind of a little teaser, you work and see if you’re a good fit and then you’ll possibly get a full on job offer. So I got interviewed for that.

I was kind of nervous initially, I was working for a huge corporation at the time where I definitely felt super, super alienated. I felt like I was on my own. I was the only black person there. There were other women there, but everyone else was white. So I didn’t really feel connected at all. I didn’t really feel like I had a place there and it was always a complete drag to go to work. Especially commuting an hour each way for that. So I actually was really excited about being offered this apprenticeship.

And I went to part-time at that company and went to part-time at Yikes to really, really be able to immerse myself into this entry level web dev role.
And they definitely had a lot of trust in me, which I appreciate, which is one of the things that really, really solidified my want to be there because I’m so used to kind of being micromanaged from that previous position I had, where I just felt really nice to be trusted, even though I didn’t have that much experience with the web dev yet. It was nice to be trusted in projects and kind of essentially me managing my own work and being trusted that much to be able to be like Hey, you let me know when you need help and I will be ready to help you here are some resources.
I know you sort of dive into this stuff, but here is a full on class that you can take and still get paid for it. And here’s all the resources and now I’m here. And let’s get this project, the first project you ever worked on done, let’s get it done. And that’s exactly what I needed personally.

I know that people have different learning styles and Yikes does adjust based on what kind of learning style you have. But I am definitely learner who likes just to be head down in videos, reading all that. I don’t need someone right away to guide me through those things. So I find that really awesome for them to accommodate me like that. And that’s kind of like what we, as people of color and in general as entry level developers need, you need to kind of be super, super in tune with how that person learns and how they Excel. And offer them the tools based on how they learn so they can generate the best products they can for you.

So I did appreciate that. So we have like daily stand ups as most companies do or most agencies do. I appreciate as a person who does not speak up that much, it’s not only because I’m shy, but I’m so used to being around, when I’m the only person of color in the room I don’t really feel a pull of speak up. I think a lot of people can relate to that. And even though there are other minorities on our team, I still was kind of getting out of that mindset of like, oh, don’t talk too much. I’m the only me minority here. So I appreciated during the stand ups, how they kind of would allow me the space to talk like invite me in like, Hey Ebonie, what do you think about this?

Oh, Ebonie, what do you think about that? And just like really nice approaches like that. So that very important especially not only when the person is new, but when the person has experienced a lot of just racism, sexism, for all the isms. For me I have the very, very laid back and I don’t want to interrupt anything because I don’t want to cause confrontation. So that lets me not talking that much. But I appreciated my bosses who were like Hey, your opinion matters. What do you think? So that was a very, very huge point for me to realize that was in kind of the right place.

Allie Nimmons:
Yeah. For me so important. Like I never heard anyone phrase that like that. I experienced that a lot. Like this feeling of like I’ve had people tell me that they like oh, when I first met you, I thought you were super standoffish or I thought you were mean, or I thought you were a bitch or whatever. And it was just because I was shy and I didn’t want to speak too much and draw attention to myself or come off as any type of way.

And I feel like a lot of people, especially with that angry black woman, emotional black women mentality out there it can be uncomfortable to be assertive. Right? Even though we know being assertive is a good thing. We worry about how it’s going to come off to others. And that’s a really great thing to bring up that I feel like even the most well-meaning manager might not realize like oh, Ebony not talking, she’s not being a team player. She’s not doing this, she’s not doing that. Whereas all you need is somebody to just say Hey, I want to hear from you. And that can make such a huge difference.

Ebonie Butler:
Exactly. All you got to do is ask that one question and that person can either start talking because they’ve been waiting and like waiting and just being timid about it or the person’s going to be like, I don’t have anything to say. And then you kind of for real that person is, I guess just not in a mood. So yeah, it just takes asking.

Allie Nimmons:
For sure. Is there anything else that you particularly find special about working there?

Ebonie Butler:
Yeah. I think have one more actually. So an interesting thing that I’m not used to as well. And I will say also I have never worked for a agency before, this is my first time working for an agency. And I come from a huge corporation with over like 20,000 employees. So it’s a huge difference but I find it super, super valuable and really uplifting when my name is directly connected to a project. Like it’s not just an overarching, oh, Yikes did this. No, they’re like Ebony did this from Yikes.

So I appreciate that they connect my name and allow me to get the recognition. Which wasn’t a thing in my previous position. It was more so the project manager would get the recognition and all that. I think that’s, I set up pretty much and I’m just like, it’s surprising sometimes to me still to kind of be like, oh, Ebonie did this and congratulate her or she’s going to fix it for you and all this.

It’s still very surprising. Because as a person of color, you don’t really get that recognition very often. You’re kind of used to someone else getting the credit for the work you did. It’s kind of normalizing unfortunately and so a lot of people don’t speak up about it. But at this, my current position, I find that super, super valuable and it was kind of like eye opening as well. Like if I move on to a different position I don’t think I’m going to allow myself not to be spoken about.

Allie Nimmons:
Yeah. I love that. I love that energy.

Ebonie Butler:
So yeah. I mean, like I have learned a lot here about the amount of respect that I deserve as a person of color. Even just starting out, I am considered a senior dev at this point at my agency. But it felt so great to get the respect that I deserved from the beginning, even being in an entry level developer at that time.

So I mean, I feel just important at this job as every person of color should I feel like my voice matters. I feel like I can just learn how I want and really Excel and it leads to [inaudible 00:13:52] happy. So it’s all about providing that environment. It’s very important, like putting these companies who are getting all this backlash for lack, lack of diversity and inclusion, they’re not putting in the work to make that happen. I’m sure you clearly know that.

And it’s just stepping out of the comfort zone of your own company that own and culture you created and trying to shift it in into something that welcomes everyone, not just the average white male that tends to attract most of these positions. So I’m very happy here. I really wish more people of color in tech felt as happy I’ve definitely heard some horror stories unfortunately, but I’m always rooting for better workplace.

Allie Nimmons:
Yeah. Same, same. That’s amazing. I’m really happy for you. I’m really happy that you’re happy where you are. I know Yikes is a really great company and those are all really good. I feel like you just gave a really great bullet list of anybody who is looking for a dev at a company. You can write all this stuff down as a list to say these are all the things that I require, right? And it’s not benefits and for one case and all that. It’s like I required great respect. I require being invited to the table.
All of these things that everybody is do, right?

Whether you are black, white male, female entry level or lead developer, these are things everybody needs. And I think that it can be kind of scary to ask for that when you already have like hurdles to overcome. So I’m super glad that you have those things. I’m super glad that Tracy and the team at Yikes are supportive of you.
Thank you so much for talking to me today.

I did want to also plug one other thing while I have Ebony here, Ebony and I are both, she does way more work on it than me, so I feel guilty for even attaching myself to the project.

But we are both I guess, like admins, co admins, co moderators of the WordPress women of color, which is a slack group that is exclusively for women and non-binary people of color in the WordPress community. It’s totally free it’s just a slack group. There’s no like membership or anything like that. You just go to the website, add your name in. And we do our best to I unfortunately I missed the last meeting, but we have what like monthly, we try to have like monthly zoom calls.

Ebonie Butler:
Yeah. We’re getting back to that for sure.

Allie Nimmons:
Yeah. Awesome. So if you are a woman or non-binary person of color in the WordPress community, you can find us at wpwomenofcolor.com or on Twitter at WPwomenofcolor. And we would really like to see you there. Ebony started it. When did you start that group? Do you remember?

Ebonie Butler:
I believe the last word camp. Was the last word camp 2019 or 2020?

Allie Nimmons:
2019.

Ebonie Butler:
Yeah, 2019. I started it after meeting three other lovely women of color at the WordPress, Word camp US rather. And it was fun. I was that was my third time going to word camp. And actually I started feeling comfortable and that actually started, I met you there.

Allie Nimmons:
That is where we met. I remember seeing you and being like, there’s another black girl oh, I really want to talk to her. And you did seem really shy. So then I was kind of like, oh, I don’t want to be too much with my energy and overwhelm her. So I kind of like backed off. But then we like reconnected through Twitter.

Ebonie Butler:
Yeah.

Allie Nimmons:
But yeah, we’re trying to get the group up and running a little bit more, because it is really important. Like you were saying before to just know that there are other people like you in the room, right? Like that’s the place where I can go and code switch and just be that part of myself that I’m not necessarily with other people. It’s such an empowering group. I love of it. We’re going to cap things off there. Thank you so, so, so much Ebony for joining me today and I’ll see you around.

Ebonie Butler:
Yes. See you round.

Allie Nimmons:
This episode was sponsored by the following companies. Ninja forms. Ninja forms is WordPress form building simplified build beautiful user friendly forms that will make you feel like a professional web developer, no code required. If you’re interested in sponsoring an episode using our database, or just want to say hi, go to underrepresentedintech.com. See you next week.