Investing in Women ft. Marieke van de Rakt

Speaker 1:
Welcome to the Underrepresented in Tech podcast, hosted by Michelle Frechette and Allie Nimmons. Underrepresented in Tech is a free database built with the goal of helping people find new opportunities in WordPress and tech overall.

Michelle :
Hi, Marieke!

Marieke van de Rakt:
Hi, Michelle!

Michelle :
It’s so good to see you today. For anybody curious, Allie is having lunch with people at CLOUDFEST in Austin, Texas today, so I get you all to myself, and I’m so grateful for you to spend time with me today.

Marieke van de Rakt:
Oh, happy to be here. Happy to be here. Very happy to be here.

Michelle :
You are somebody, before we even knew each other personally, somebody that I have been following on Twitter and watching your career and just been so excited about the things that you do and the things that you’re involved in. And that I get to call you my friend, makes it even more wonderful because I get to celebrate with you, instead of just watching you. And you’ve been doing some amazing things from working at Yoast to being the CEO to selling the company, and then now with your investment firm, with your husband, Emelia Capital, you’re doing some pretty amazing things. Tell us how that all came about?

Marieke van de Rakt:
You are making me uncomfortable with all that talk. We sold Yoast two years ago now. And we’re now both really out of the company, which is still weird for me, but it happened, so I’m no longer a Yoastie. And we felt like we’ve made a lot of money with the acquisition and we felt like we always feel like you have [inaudible 00:01:42] it’s nice, it’s not even you have to give back, we want to give back to the community. And the way we’re doing that now is to invest in companies that need investment to get started. And that’s partly because that’s a very sensible business decision, but it’s also because we really enjoy working with founders.
I think the days that we founded Yoast, so the first few years, were the happiest of my life because it was so much fun to be in that startup culture. And for me personally, I struggled with leadership as a woman. So I feel really passionate about helping female founders both to find their way, it’s a difficult thing, I also found it really difficult in the process of selling Yoast, to be the only woman, in my case, in a Zoom call because it was during Covid, but well, you’re basically always the only woman in a room, and that’s just a bit hard.

Michelle :
Yes. It could be awkward at the easiest, and downright difficult at the most hard part of it, for sure. I hear stories from people saying, well, I was the only woman there, so they kept asking me to get the coffee even though I am equal to everybody at the table. And that always does put us in an awkward situation. Or to say, oh, will you be the note-taker? What? Because I’m the woman at the table? I personally am terrible at being the note-taker. So I usually turn to a man and say, “Will you be the note-taker?” So that I don’t have to be.

Marieke van de Rakt:
Yeah. Well, that happens. And then in my case, I’m also married to Joost, and so people just assume that I’m only there because I’m married to him. And if you would look at my resume, I have a college degree, Joost doesn’t. I actually have a PhD, he didn’t even go to college. So there could be a lot of reasons to say that he benefited from me, but no one ever thinks that. And it’s not true. So Joost is really, really awesome and did amazing things, but just to assume that someone is only there just because he’s someone’s wife, in my case, that’s really hurtful, and that happens to me a lot. Joost has been called the heart and soul of company, and then I was like, what am I? The gallbladder or the… I don’t know, something you could take off. Yeah.

Michelle :
Gallbladder. That’s wonderful. Maybe you should have named the SEO company Marieke instead of Yoast, and then it would be the other way around.

Marieke van de Rakt:
[inaudible 00:04:28] jokes about that. Yeah, because Joost, he really didn’t think about it too much when he called this company that. And in hindsight, he would never have done that, because it’s just so closely knit to his person. But we often joke about calling it Marieke. Yeah.

Michelle :
So like I said, it’s been fun to watch you do some amazing things, and the fact that you were able to sell the company and not just say, “Hey, we’re going to buy a yacht and take our family around the world and behave like royalty,” instead, you said, we want to invest in other people and help them do what we did. Growing the business, I think is just… It’s phenomenal. I’m one of those people that likes to pay forward, pay back, into the community as well. And so I feel very kindred with you along those lines, as far as the things that we can do to benefit others. I think it’s wonderful what you’re doing. And actually, I’m on your website right now, and looking at some of the companies that you’ve invested in, these are not names that people have not heard of. So we’re talking about Atarim and Castos, Equalize Digital, Extendify… I can speak, I really can. We have Nina.care, Peerby, WordProof, WPCS.io… There’s some really nice names on there.

Marieke van de Rakt:
Yeah. So we have some Dutch companies that are local and we know them… Well, we didn’t really know them, but we like to invest local and of course, that’s really fun. And then we have some WordPress companies and we kind of decided along the way, we have three things that are important to us. The one thing is open source for, well, WordPress, but open source, so it could be outside of WordPress as well. And then another thing is sustainability, which we only have one investment that’s really sustainable. It’s Peerby, it’s Dutch and it helps you to… If you don’t want to buy a tool, and just borrow it from someone, that’s this platform that could help people borrow tools and things that you only need once, from each other. I really hope it will become big, but we don’t know yet. And then we have the female empowerment stuff. Because I feel like I care about all kinds of diversity, but the female part, I really understand. So I think if we invest in female founders, I can also help those women to step… Or I hope I can help them…

Michelle :
I think you can.

Marieke van de Rakt:
… step up. Yeah. We feel really strongly with an investment, that we’re not involved in the day-to-day business but we want to be something that could help grow the business. And that could either be branding or SEO or, well, mostly branding and SEO [inaudible 00:07:24].

Michelle :
I understand. Yeah. But also, if people have questions about how you did something in growing your business, you’re able to answer them as well. You’re part of that organization.

Marieke van de Rakt:
Yes. How to deal with employees, and all those things, how to set up company culture, and all these things [inaudible 00:07:42].

Michelle :
Yeah.

Marieke van de Rakt:
Yeah. It’s true.

Michelle :
Absolutely. And from what I’ve seen, you’ve done it well, in the past.

Marieke van de Rakt:
Yeah, I think so too.

Michelle :
Yeah, for sure. And the people that I know that work at Yoast, who came in under the two of you, that are still working there and love it there. So I think that speaks volumes for the way that you do business, for sure. But one of the things that, and Allie and I talked about this on a recent episode, it’s very difficult sometimes for minority business owners to either know how to look for investors or to be considered for investment. And it’s not a level playing field, in a lot of ways. And so, knowing that you are an investment business that’s looking specifically… Well, maybe not specifically, but absolutely open to, and wanting to, invest in minority and women-owned businesses, I think that that’s a great, great thing. And I know, this episode should come out right before WordCamp Europe, so if you’re listening to this afterwards, we’ll be able to maybe come back later to another episode and say, how did it go, but you are sponsoring WordCamp Europe, and you are doing a pitch fest, if you’d like. I referred to it earlier in the week. Another thing is kind of like the WordPress Shark Tank. But in a very kind and gentle way. So Yoast isn’t going to be Kevin O’Leary, who just [inaudible 00:09:10] people. But earlier this week you had three, hopefully you’ll have four…

Marieke van de Rakt:
We have four now. Yeah.

Michelle :
Oh, I’m so happy to hear it. So you have four companies that will be pitching their products to you, or their businesses, to you. And by the end of the day, that day, you’ll have an answer of either, we’re not interested, or let’s move forward with more discussions. Is that correct?

Marieke van de Rakt:
Yeah. Yes. Actually, I want to do it right after. And see, because we have quite a lot of information, I think we can have a decision for, no, this is not for us, we’re not going to be able to help you, or yes, we’re going to do that. We have at least two women pitching there, so that’s good. So half of-

Michelle :
I love that.

Marieke van de Rakt:
… the companies that are coming to us are women, but I… So I want to invest in women, but it’s sometimes also hard for them to find us, and they’re getting better because if you invest in things, then people get to know you. It’s also, they have to know that we’re an investment company, and they have to find us. But it’s hard to find them. And I also think that for a lot of women or people from other minorities, they just don’t think about the possibility to get funding, because well, if you are a little bit risk aversive, you would probably not do that. Perhaps you don’t know how, perhaps… There are all kinds of reasons. So I think we should show and have role models of female founders so that other women would think, oh, I can do that. So that’s what I hope with the public pitches, that women on WordCamp, perhaps just walking by, see someone pitching and looking for investments and will think, oh, that could be me. I could maybe do that and maybe not then the next day, but the next year or something.

Michelle :
Sure.

Marieke van de Rakt:
Yeah, we need those stories and those role models out there.

Michelle :
Absolutely. And I think there’s generational issues, too. So, women in my generation, we were raised that we weren’t as good as men. And I graduated in 1987 from high school. I was ranked 21st out of 321 people. So, very high in my class. And yet my guidance counselor told me I shouldn’t go to college, I should try to find a husband and be a stay-at-home mom. In 1987. And you look back at that, and luckily I was not the kind of person that listened to that. I went to college, I got my Master’s degree, all but dissertation. I did the things that she said I shouldn’t or couldn’t do. And I am sitting where I am in the community today because I don’t listen to people like that. But a lot of other women have grown up hearing those voices and afraid to think that they’re good enough.

Speaker 1:
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Marieke van de Rakt:
So if I look at in the Netherlands, which seems to be a really open country, but we have a really low level of women working full-time because we have this idea, well, men tend to work five days and then women, two or three, because they have to take care of the children. And you can’t take your children to daycare every day. You can, but then you’re a bad mother. I don’t even do that. I just lie at school, because if I would say that I work full-time, people would think I’m a bad mother. I do work full-time, I work more than 50 hours a week, but I do that at night, and then people don’t know. And I stopped telling them because I won’t have any friends. They won’t listen to the podcast. So that helps. I just don’t talk about it anymore because if I tell people that I work full-time and that I have four children, I would be a bad mother.
And now the recent research said that only 2% of girls in the Netherlands think that they will work full-time if [inaudible 00:13:25]. 2%. So they’re all raised in the idea that ambition maybe is not an attractive trait in a female. And that will surely… But that’s also what I’m struggling with. I’ve been struggling with that, really, my whole life. Very ambitious. Lot of boys my age didn’t like me. I learned myself to be a little bit more dumb, because then men would find me more attractive. I’m also really tall, so that doesn’t help, either.

Michelle :
But it’s such a disadvantage to women to be told our whole lives that our worth is not where we think it is, but where other people want to place it. And I think that what you’re doing with Emelia is saying, that’s not true, we want to see what you have to say and we believe that you are worthwhile, show us your product. And if the product is also where it needs to be, as far as the process, and aligns with your values and marketing, et cetera, your goals, then you have an opportunity to have an investment in those conversations.

Marieke van de Rakt:
And I would prefer a company… Well, I would most prefer a very mixed company, because I think that that helps because the male and the female perspective, also a perspective within other culture, just helps you to get the product better. So that’s what I think would be best, always. And I think research also shows that those companies perform the best, so that makes the most sense. I think it’s changing because my brother is also in the investment world, and he started a company with four friends, and from investors, he gets back, “You are all white males.” And he’s like, “Yeah, you’re right.” And for them, that’s a disadvantage now, which should be, at this point.

Michelle :
Yeah, for sure. I do a talk about inclusion in the WordPress community, and in it, I talk about, if you have a diverse group of people, an inclusive group of people in your company, you are going to be able to market your products better because you’re getting other inputs into what that looks like. And I specifically talk about how they marketed vacuum cleaners in the ’60s and ’70s and how they marketed it towards men, about how much your wife would love for you to give her this vacuum cleaner, and the pictures they showed are women in pearls and dressed beautifully, vacuuming their floors. And the reality was, when men gave those vacuum cleaners to their wives for Christmas or Valentine’s or a birthday, they were like, “What the heck is this? This is not a romantic gift!” And when they started to include women in marketing, so when we started to see women infiltrate marketing and product and that kind of thing, now we see commercials like, “Look how good this vacuum works. Watch it pick up dirt.” It’s more about the utility of it than, it’s a sexy gift to give. And so if we just use that as… Just the most brief example, we can see that we can do better when more people have inputs into how we do anything in our businesses.

Marieke van de Rakt:
Yeah, exactly. I really feel strongly about… So, young and old… You should have a diverse group. And that should be a benefit. But my brother has a really good company. We invested in it as well, although [inaudible 00:16:54] four men. But for me, it’s not that I don’t want to invest in such a company, but I do think their team would be better if they had more women in there. So now I’m an advisor. But they do have other… No, they don’t. They should have more diversity in there because that would make their company better. And he agrees. And sometimes things grow the way they grow. And that doesn’t mean that he’s a bad person or his company is bad. But for me as an investor, I would like to see more diverse teams because I believe that those companies will be more successful.

Michelle :
Absolutely. Which is why when I saw that you all were investing in Equalize Digital, I was super excited about it. Not only is Amber Hinds at the top of that company with her husband, but also the products that they’re creating are for accessibility, which also is an inclusive thing. So, kudos to you for seeing the value in that whole company-

Marieke van de Rakt:
Yeah. They’re really good.

Michelle :
… and the products that they have.

Marieke van de Rakt:
I think Amber’s very good. She does so many spreadsheets. She does-

Michelle :
She’s amazing.

Marieke van de Rakt:
Yeah, she’s really amazing. Yeah. Yeah, I should tell her that [inaudible 00:18:06].

Michelle :
We’ll have to tag her when we post this.

Marieke van de Rakt:
No, I was really impressed by how professionally they run that business, because when our business was small, we didn’t…

Michelle :
We all learn as we go, for sure. But having somebody, I think an infusion of money into a business is always a good thing. That helps us get to the next level. It helps us hire, it helps us with R&D and all of those things, but also bringing the brain power that y’all have. So you could say, “We did this, and this is how it worked well.” Whether somebody takes the advice or not, at least they’re getting more inputs from people who have been successful doing similar or the same things that they’re working on, which is so important.

Marieke van de Rakt:
Yeah.

Michelle :
Absolutely.

Marieke van de Rakt:
Yeah. And so much fun.

Michelle :
Yeah, absolutely. For sure. So a couple quick questions about what you’re doing at WordCamp Europe. Are you going to be filming it, so people can watch it later and see how it worked or that kind of-

Marieke van de Rakt:
Good idea. I don’t think we are, because I think if we are going to do that now, I should have told people beforehand, because maybe not everybody’s comfortable with their pitch going to be documented for live. So no, we’re not going to do that. But that was a really good idea.

Michelle :
Next time, next time. You can incorporate that.

Marieke van de Rakt:
But everybody is welcome.

Michelle :
Yes.

Marieke van de Rakt:
So we’ve published the schedule on the website, emelia.capital, and so you can see, there’s a blog post and you can see who’s pitching when. I’m also going to tweet about it. So that perfect, you won’t forget. And then you can just, well, stand somewhere in the area and hear what they’re going to do. And they’re totally free. I’ve not given them a format, perhaps they’re going to do a dance. I don’t know. They can do whatever they want.

Michelle :
Interpretive dance about their product.

Marieke van de Rakt:
Yeah. Well, if they want to. Perhaps it’s good. So then they have 10 minutes, and then we’ll ask questions for 10 minutes and then that’s that’s it. So it’s going to be short and sweet.

Michelle :
I love it. And you’ll have seen things in advance, right? So they have-

Marieke van de Rakt:
Yes, yes. Yeah. Yeah.

Michelle :
So it’s not blindly working with them.

Marieke van de Rakt:
Yeah.

Michelle :
Okay. Very good. Well, I’m excited about it. I can’t wait to see how it all works for you. And I’m very much, of course, looking forward to seeing you. As long as we’ve known each other, this will be the first time we’re in the same physical location. So my five foot tallness and your six foot oneness, and we are still going to find a way to hug comfortably.

Marieke van de Rakt:
It’s going to be weird to see you without a screen.

Michelle :
I know. Same. But I’m very much looking forward to it.

Marieke van de Rakt:
Yeah, me too, me too. It will be great. I’m really looking forward to the whole event.

Michelle :
So you don’t just wait for events like this, though, for people. If they have a really exciting product and they want to pitch it to you, they can do that how?

Marieke van de Rakt:
They can just send us an email or fill out a contact form, and then we’ll get in touch. So you usually get slide decks, but even if you don’t have that, and just want to talk, then just reach out. For this event, I think it’s really important to do this in public, to show that it’s okay to want to make money in WordPress, because a lot of people do it. It’s mostly the hosting companies, but it could also be [inaudible 00:21:17] individual contributors should be able to make a living. And I think if we do it in public, especially if we show that other people than white men can do such a presentation, that would be a great role model for everyone..

Michelle :
Absolutely.

Marieke van de Rakt:
… that’s not convinced that they can do this.

Michelle :
Absolutely. I love that. It’s not just this event. This event is very exciting because it is very public and people can see it. I think so many of mergers, acquisitions, investments, happen behind closed doors, and that’s fine, sometimes that’s the way it needs to be, absolutely, but the fact that it’s possible to do things like this publicly, and share what the process looks like, I’m just excited about seeing it, and about how it will open doors for other people to think about how they think about the future of their own businesses. And I think that’s a great thing.

Marieke van de Rakt:
Yeah. I think so too. Yes.

Michelle :
Yeah. [inaudible 00:22:14]. Thank you so much for sharing, today. I can’t thank you enough. Is there anything else you’d like to add? Anything I haven’t asked you about? Anything you’re super excited for?

Marieke van de Rakt:
No, I just really hope I’m a backup speaker at WordCamp Europe, and I really hope that…

Michelle :
I hope they call you up into the big leagues, for sure.

Marieke van de Rakt:
Yeah. So that’s the only thing that my talk will be about. Diversity and gender equality. So I really, really hope that… Well, I don’t hope that someone can’t make it, or gets sick, that’s awful, but still.

Michelle :
No. But if it happens anyway, I hope that they bring you up.

Marieke van de Rakt:
Yes.Then I’ll be there.

Michelle :
That’s right. We don’t wish anybody ill…

Marieke van de Rakt:
No.

Michelle :
… but if it happens…

Marieke van de Rakt:
Then I’ll be there.

Michelle :
That’s right. That’s right. Wonderful. Well, I’m looking forward to seeing you there, and I am excited about the future for Emelia Capital and what it’s going to look like. And I have not finished watching your career grow. I look forward very much to watching the next years, and how things go for you, and continuing our friendship, of course.

Marieke van de Rakt:
Oh, great. Thank you, Michelle.

Michelle :
You’re welcome. Thank you for being here today, and we’ll see you next week.

Marieke van de Rakt:
Next week. Bye.

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