Raw Talk: Women’s Struggles, Mental Health, and the State of the World

[00:00:00] Speaker A: Welcome to the Underrepresented in Tech podcast, where we talk about issues in underrepresentation and have difficult conversations. Underrepresented in Tech is a free database with the goal of helping people find new opportunities in WordPress and tech.

Hello, Samah.

[00:00:19] Speaker B: Hello, Michelle.

[00:00:21] Speaker A: I haven’t seen you in so long.

[00:00:24] Speaker B: Same here. Oh, my God, I missed you a lot last week. I felt like I lost something, you.

[00:00:29] Speaker A: Know, like, where’s my Samah? We texted, but it wasn’t the same.

[00:00:34] Speaker B: No, no, it’s never the same. We need to have this conversation 101. So.

[00:00:38] Speaker A: Yeah. Well, as we were talking before we started recording, we’re going to get personal this session. We don’t have any articles. We may find some as we go. Who knows? But there’s a lot happening in our worlds, and we decided to do that today. Dear listener, I always feel like Dear Abby when I say that, dear listeners, that we. It’s okay to share what’s going on in our own personal lives because we are women in tech, and what’s happening to us is probably happening to others as well. And so, yes, this is. This is the stripped raw, you know, this is the bear raw episode about how we haven’t cried and been there before about our own feelings. But.

But yeah, so some of this conversation started because, you know, we had a. We have. It’ll be a future episode. We have a really cool article on language and how language applies in tech, and yada, yada, yada. But. And it will be very good. But that’s not where our hearts are today, so you’ll have to come back for that one. But today, I’ve just been struggling a little bit with depression lately, and I’m on my meds and those kinds of things, so it’s not my chemical depression that I usually struggle with. It’s really situational depression, you know, So I know that I’ll get out of it, and I know that things will be okay. And I keep telling myself that, but, like, I just don’t want to do anything at night but just sit and do crossword puzzles on my phone and watch stupid movies. And I decided yesterday that it’s okay if that’s what I do. Like, I built a couple of Legos in the last few days just because I needed to do something besides crossword puzzles. And so I put together a couple of Legos, but.

But following my stepfather’s death, I have been kind of in a funk, I guess you could say. And then it is getting dark here. Before 5:00 in the evening now because of daylight savings time. So seasonal affective disorder has hit. You know, when you wake up, it’s dark, and you go to work like you’re done, even if you work from home, right? Like I sit here, I’m not done with work. I look out the window, and it’s dark outside already. And it’s like there’s just, no, not enough daylight. And the daylight that’s here right now is very overcast. So.

And then we had this little thing called an election in the United States, which is very scary, very disconcerting. And I’m sure that, you know, when we talk about this, we’ll have a lot of right-wing people coming in and saying how wrong I am. But, I posted something both on Twitter and on Facebook about it, saying, you know that I’ve always been afraid as a woman in the United States. Right. And we talked about things that have happened to both of us in the past. So people know what’s happened to me. If they want to, they can ask. But it’s been scary to live as a woman alone. I, People ask me, why don’t you open yours. I turn my air conditioner on at night, even when it’s not that, not that hot out, instead of opening a window. But I live on the first floor. If I open a window, then I’m exposed to people who want to walk by and just come in through my window because it’s right there on ground level.

So there are things that I just can’t do as a single woman in this world, and that’s one of them. But under our new administration coming in in January, it’s bound to get worse because we’ve talked about women’s reproductive health before. It’s going to be worse. We’ve talked about some of the, you know, the crazy cat lady theory. And our new vice president thinks that if you don’t have children, you shouldn’t be able to vote. You shouldn’t because you don’t have a stake in the future.

No matter the fact that my future could still be like 30 or 40 years. Right. So, and, and that, that, that this project 2025, and I haven’t read the whole thing, I must admit that, but I’ve seen excerpts of it. They, you know, there are things in there that would.

The mass deportations of people that I love, you know, including people who are naturalized citizens, to denaturalize them and Send them home. Right. So, like, that doesn’t.

It’s very. Yeah. And it’s very upsetting. And so I posted that I was even more terrified now. People from Facebook, and people from my childhood, even taunted me in the comments. And one person who used to be a student of mine, with whom I was on good terms, said, if you don’t like it here, go. Go live somewhere else. So I spent time blocking people from deleting comments. Somebody from. From Asia, I won’t say who or what country, in particular, commented like three about how Trump was going to stop the war in Afghanistan or in a.

In Gaza, he was going to stop the war in Ukraine, and he, you know, was going to do all these wonderful things. And I’m like, delete, delete, delete, block. Like, no, you cannot put that kind of propaganda on my page. Go post it for yourself. And then I posted the same thing on Twitter. And strangers know; one stranger took a screenshot of my profile picture and said that I don’t have to worry about being assaulted because I’m ugly, basically, is what they said.

[00:05:40] Speaker B: I’m so sorry.

[00:05:42] Speaker A: That’s.

[00:05:42] Speaker B: I’m so sorry.

[00:05:43] Speaker A: That’s fine. I don’t think I’m ugly. And I also know that I’m not everybody’s cup of tea, and that’s fine. Right? But that was rude, right, for a stranger to do that. And then somebody in WordPress, somebody who I. We didn’t follow each other, but somebody whose name I know and thought was a respected person commented, well, then go live someplace else. And I looked to see, and it was like, I looked at his profile, and it was all Trump stuff.

And several. Several white men like, responded, how could you do that? How could you be so shitty? To the kindest person in WordPress, one person wrote. Another was like, that’s a shitty take, dude. That kind of stuff. I just blocked him and moved on because I don’t need that kind of negativity in my life. But. But the positivity of other people commenting on me was very nice. Didn’t make me feel alone. But all of that to say. It’s hard to get motivated to get out of bed right now. It’s really hard to get motivated. Like, I went out for lunch with a friend on Saturday and brunch with a different friend on Sunday, and it was so hard to get out of bed to do those things. I’m so glad I did because once I got it out, it was great. Right. But depression and anxiety can just rob you of your desire to even do the good things. And so that’s my reality right now. That’s what I’m dealing with. And you’ve shared some things with me through TikToks that you’ve shared and those kinds of things. I know you’ve got things to add to that. So I will drink my coffee now and let you talk.

[00:07:04] Speaker B: Yeah, for me, I understand. I’m also politically depressed, let’s say that way. And I understand depression because, like, also, people, they, it’s come in stages, of course, and there’s come in many shapes. Sometimes it’s your heart; it’s there all of the time. But of course, if someone sees you’re laughing, you’re a smart woman, you’re participating in the podcast, and you’re active in WordPress. People say like, oh, this Michelle, you know, but I mean, at the end, it is there. Everyone can face it. Of course, seasonal depression. It’s also here in the Netherlands. I opened the window, and it was eight, and it was still dark in the morning. And she’s like, oh, my God, another day, you know, like this, how I feel. It starts on Monday, saying five days to go to the weekend, which is a little bit sad, but right also. And all, all of the news, everything around the world is like, I feel like the world is really. I’m not going to say a bad word. It’s really, it’s weird. It’s like we’re going crazy. And also the women’s abortion rights in Europe and the States and everywhere. And because I’m coming from the Middle East, I always look to Europe and the States. They’re going to be so forward. They’re supporting more human rights and women’s rights especially. But no, that’s not, that’s happening.

Sometimes, the issue with people is that they don’t respect each other because even if he said something about Donald Trump, you are allowed to have your own opinion. And that sometimes the United States is the land of freedom like this is how we know it from people outside. You can say whatever you want. I can express my feelings without feeling attacked. Like, if you say, like, I don’t like Donald Trump, that people should not come and attack you for it, you’re sharing your opinion about him.

And. Yeah, I know. I’m also a little bit worried about, honestly, because the. It affects all of the world. And I said I’m politically depressed. And of course, it’s, I believe it. Women’s rights that talk about It. And there’s a lot of. I’m scared of a lot of new laws, kind of sit back women in the United States and people of color and put them 200 to 300 years back, because I believe it just starts to be steps, only women, and then there’s going to be LGBTQ+ groups. It is, yeah.

[00:09:34] Speaker A: The insane thing is people believing the rhetoric that he spreads that kids go to school in the morning and come back having had gender-affirming surgery at lunch. I’m like, what?

[00:09:48] Speaker B: Like, yeah, yeah. I said this was something we couldn’t afford.

[00:09:50] Speaker A: To pay to give children breakfast, but you think we can afford to give them surgery? Like, it’s just insane. But they say those things to cover up the things that they’re doing, like banning books, books that matter, books that we read, books that should be read, that talk about politics and that talk about women’s rights, that talk about LGBTQ+ rights, that talk about the rights of underserved populations, that talk about the history of black people in the United States.

They have banned those books in a lot of Southern states. So you can’t learn about Jim Crow laws; you can’t learn about slavery. You can’t learn about it. They put a twist on it to make it sound like black people were just so happy to be in the United States and, you know, now they’re free, so they could do anything.

Freeing the slaves was amazing. Absolutely. First of all, never should have been enslaved. Secondly, freeing the slaves was great, but do you think life got better just because they were free? They now had no place to live. They had no food to eat. They had to find jobs that would pay them a living wage. And. And none of that was easy for anybody to do post-war, much less people of color. And so. And. And the United States is still recovering from that because of our civil rights and because of the way that people view people who they consider less than them, women and, you know, and. And black people and other underserved populations. So, yeah, it’s just. Sometimes it just feels like a lot.

[00:11:14] Speaker B: It is. It is a lot. And for me, as.

I don’t know. I just want to have one week off. Like, I don’t want to worry about anything. I want everything to be fine. I want to open the news and watch it. They make ads for carnivals or festivals or Imagine Dragons has a new song. Like, something like this, you know, like something happy or flowers or whatever it is. It is really. It’s also part of our life, and that’s why we’re talking today. We always focus on making our community better, but we’re also human beings. Something worries me. Something worries you. And I know it’s not been easy with your stepfather passing away and all of this. And I understand that you are living in that situation, and you’re a very strong, powerful woman, smart woman, and very beautiful woman. And I think sometimes that you still believe that in 2024, we. Are you still fighting or talking about why you, as a woman, have? In the United States and other parts of the world, we have the right to have abortions and be responsible for our productive parts, or I’m allowed to do this, or I’m allowed not to have kids. I don’t want to have kids. Don’t judge me about it. It’s really depressing because you feel like it’s getting worse and worse. I also think about the things people now say on social media and even TV. Five years ago, nobody dared to say 10 years was like it was; oh no, you can now see it’s so normal to attack each other to make this crazy thing come out. And what also scares me, I saw a lot of in the tweets people or, or in Tick Tock, our favorite platform, that people start to speak up more with this hate, you know, with women. Like if you don’t. I was watching a couple of Tick Tock videos. A guy saying if you don’t have kids, if you don’t clean the house, if you don’t cook, then why you are a woman?

My reply was like, do you know how to build a house? Did you build a house? Did you go for a hunt to bring food? Then why are you mad? You know, if you want to talk about this common sense, I can talk with this common sense. No, but it is, it is. How can I say? It’s part of our daily life. It’s affecting us mentally, physically, and our lives. And it’s, it’s also. I know you’re fighting for a better future for women, for a lot of underrepresented in tech, and for a lot of people all around you. And I’m also trying to do the same. But the thing is, we’re. We’re depressed.

Yeah, I’m laughing about it, but because it’s.

[00:13:51] Speaker A: It’s sometimes easier to laugh than cry.

[00:13:53] Speaker B: It’s me. I live in denial like I always do, which is sad when it’s going to be really weird.

No, it’s the thing.

[00:14:04] Speaker A: We’re so depressed.

[00:14:06] Speaker B: Right? Yeah, I think someone will sponsor us with the psychiatrist. No, I always believe in positivity. I don’t believe it’s going to rain all of the time, and I don’t believe it’s going to be shiny, Sunny, and shiny all day. I always try to enjoy the moment. But sometimes, I’m allowed myself to be.

[00:14:34] Speaker A: Yeah.

[00:14:34] Speaker B: Unhappy. I’m allowed to. To be just. I want to be alone, to cry or be angry about something.

Because I’m a human being, and as I said, the world is going crazy. I feel like I’m just going to jump to the 18th century suddenly. How? I don’t know, just. I feel it, and we are on the way.

[00:14:52] Speaker A: I don’t know how to churn butter. So I don’t want to go back there.

[00:14:57] Speaker B: Me, they will throw me in the street, you know, like, I don’t know the butter or making a cake from scratch. Like, oh, no, let me.

[00:15:06] Speaker A: No, I don’t need to order.

My oven was made for frozen pizza and frozen pizza alone.

I know how to cook. I just don’t want to, like, I don’t have to. Right. So, you said something earlier about if people choose to be child-free, but they get all this, like, slack about it, right? And I don’t mean like Slack, which we use to communicate. They get a lot of flack, is the right word.

When my daughter told me that she and her husband were choosing to be child-free, and I may have mentioned this before, I had to take a moment for myself; you know, after she left, I was thinking about it. I had pictured a future for myself with grandchildren. And so I let myself grieve that for a couple of days that, that Michelle, that was never going to happen. And. And then I’m fine with it. Right. And so other people were like, oh, does your daughter have, you know, you have any grandchildren? No, they’ve chosen to be children. Childfree.

[00:15:59] Speaker B: Oh.

[00:16:00] Speaker A: Well, mistakes could happen. People say that all the time. Mistakes. She could. And I said, why would I want a mistake to happen to my child who doesn’t want to have children?

[00:16:09] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, it’s.

[00:16:11] Speaker A: I would never in a million years wish for that to happen for her, but that’s how you can have grandchildren. I don’t want grandchildren if she doesn’t want grandchildren, end of story. If I marry a man, let’s say in five years, I meet somebody and I marry him and he’s got kids and they have kids, I’ll be very happy. To be involved with his grandchildren’s lives, however, they would allow me to be. It’s not that I don’t love children, but I don’t want my daughter to have to deal with something in her life that she doesn’t want to happen. Especially when her right to choose if she were to fall pregnant is, is being taken away from her. Now we live in New York State, so unless it’s a federal thing, chances are it will not happen here. And she will always have reproductive rights here in the states, in New York State, because we are a democratic state.

But that’s not to say that they couldn’t force something federally or that she couldn’t relocate someday to somewhere less safe.

And I don’t want to worry about that for her, and I don’t want to worry about that for other sisters that we have. You know, whether they’re blood sisters, blood children, or just people we’ve never met. There was a tick-tock I should have, but I don’t know if I shared it with you. I should have, and maybe you saw it anyway. But it’s these different groups of women worldwide saying, American sisters, we’ve got your back. And it’s like the Belgium, these women in the Belgium, they, they were standing.

[00:17:36] Speaker B: Next to each other. Yes, I saw it.

[00:17:39] Speaker A: Remember, there were four different countries and conglomerates, and I don’t remember who they were. I just remember Belgium. But that made me cry happy tears because even though they can’t affect a change, we need to know that people see what we’re going through and have that sense of we’ve got your back. It just feels good.

[00:17:58] Speaker B: It is like I’m shocked. Why are we not focusing on the salary gap? Why are we not focusing on giving better education about other things to improve everyone’s life? And we’re just focusing. You cannot have an abortion. I was watching, I was reading about one case.

There’s sadly a father who’s physically violated his daughter. She’s 13 and 14 years old, and she is getting pregnant.

If one of those states she’s a child. If she wants to have an abortion, if a doctor helped her to do the abortion, she will go to a minimum, I think, 15 years in jail, which is crazy. Yeah. But the father can only go to jail for three years.

I find it a little bit crazy. It’s like she’s a child. But how can you? She’s 14 years old. Do you think that you love the child? You think that she will. This mother will give birth, and the kids will grow to feel very loved, give back to the community, and be happy kids. He will not. He will not be happy because she is 14. She doesn’t understand the whole situation. And honestly. And also those creeps. I wonder if I’m using a nice word. Those creeps who are also coming out on social media talking like a woman.

I find it very, very. How can I say backward? I don’t know where we are going. And I also. I feel and understand that five years ago. You, as a woman, liked fighting for salary equality. You were talking about more women in tech. They should be more involved. But now we’re just talking about what is my right to abortion. Please let someone who is getting violated, raped, or even cancer in her life that let’s have to support. And that is. That is a little bit sad. Of course, there are a lot of countries also in Europe now they’re talking. I think Hungary was doing something crazy. But it’s still. I don’t know, it’s. It’s very depressing.

[00:20:08] Speaker A: Yeah.

[00:20:09] Speaker B: The end of the year. I don’t know, it’s just like. It’s just to be happy, you know, closing chapter year and opening.

[00:20:15] Speaker A: No, no.

[00:20:15] Speaker B: And. And as the American elections. I am still determining what’s. What’s coming up I saw also his Cabin.

[00:20:22] Speaker A: Yeah.

[00:20:23] Speaker B: I was like, oh my God. No, I know. But you know, you still have 72 days left if you would like to come to the Netherlands.

[00:20:32] Speaker A: It’s funny because when I did post that on Facebook, like Shanta from Canada, she’s like, I got room for you. Come north of the border. Right. And then Verdi Hines from Elementor is like the Netherlands, which is quite nice. I’ll be happy to show you around.

Yeah.

[00:20:48] Speaker B: No, but I understand this is your country where you grow. We say it as a joke. Just come quickly. You have 72 days to move out of it. I am trying to figure out what’s the name of the. Of the book, there’s a TV show called The Maid Tale. You know, hands may tell that I feel now it’s coming to happen reality. It’s going closer or closer. If someone is listening but doesn’t know the series, You should watch it. Yeah.

[00:21:12] Speaker A: I. I read that book five times before, and I saw the movie that was made in the 80s. And then, of course, I watched the current Hulu series, which is the final part coming in the spring. So we get to see those creators because they’ve already gone past what the book did. Right. So now we’re into unknown territory.

But, yeah, it’ll be interesting to see what they say. It’s funny that you bring that up because I was thinking, you know, there are the Handmaids who are fertile, so they’re. They’re women who are of childbearing age and are capable of having children. So, anybody who’s had a hysterectomy. I don’t care how old you are; you’re not a Handmaid. Right. Because you can’t get pregnant.

Then there are the Marthas, who are beyond childbearing age or can’t bear children, who become housemaids. Like, they. They’re the, you know, making food and cleaning and that kind of thing. And then. So, what would I be? I couldn’t be a Martha because I can’t stand and cook and clean. I’d be dead. I would be the person that they would kill to get rid of me because I’m an extra mouth to feed. You would either be a Handmaid or a Martha. But I think.

[00:22:21] Speaker B: I think. I think Martha. They will take Martha because. Because it. Yeah, Martha.

[00:22:28] Speaker A: But I would be dead because I would never be married to somebody who would be a captain in that army or something because I would never believe that way. So I would just be buried. That would be me.

I would not live to see it because I would have been killed.

[00:22:45] Speaker B: All of the government, all of the men, and all of them, they’re okay with that. And women were not allowed. And if a woman did something in the series, they cut her finger as a punishment because you cannot raise your voice. And the other one is just like, she gives birth, and then you give the baby, and then you move to another house to get pregnant, to give another baby. I start feeling. But of course, how at the beginning of the book or the series, they tell you that people will start accepting that all women should give birth. Oh, you’re not allowed to choose. And then, I don’t know, maybe we’re. Maybe I’m crazy that you start feeling. I’m starting to be scared. That is a horror movie for me. I love horror movies. But that thing is not reality.

[00:23:28] Speaker A: Yeah, no, no.

[00:23:29] Speaker B: I don’t want it to happen for any country worldwide. And it’s crazy.

[00:23:36] Speaker A: So I saw and don’t know how true it is. I’d have to go look it up. But I saw that a story about Margaret Atwood, who wrote The Handmaid’s Tale, had posted something on Twitter or some social media, explaining something, and a man replied underneath. That’s not what the author meant. That’s not what the author intended. She’s like, I am the author.

[00:24:00] Speaker B: No one who wrote the book.

[00:24:02] Speaker A: Nothing like being mansplained your novel to you.

[00:24:06] Speaker B: Yeah, you never know. Maybe. They may have a new skill with X-rays, like looking at you, and you can understand what you’re talking about without explaining it.

[00:24:16] Speaker A: They think so anyway. They think so anyway. Yeah.

[00:24:18] Speaker B: Yeah.

[00:24:19] Speaker A: So no, all of this bearing our souls today and just, you know, the reality of it, right? So, like we do, we get out here every week, and we get our. Our interest is in things, and, you know, we show that we’re angry about things and want to see better things happen. But we are human beings, like you said, and there’s a cat too. But I am a human being.

All of a sudden, the tail of my face.

We’re human beings with real issues and real problems. And, you know, sometimes we’re physically sick, and sometimes we don’t have the mental capacity to even think about issues, to sit in front of a computer and talk about them. And so if we skip a week here or there, give us some grace because we’re. We’re dealing with stuff, you know, and. And life is real. Yeah.

[00:25:05] Speaker B: And it’s not easy sometimes. It’s as you said when you said, waking up in the morning.

I know for you and me. Even my. My Middle East, all of it flaming with wards, living in the Netherlands. All of this life is not easy. And sometimes it’s okay not to be okay. I learned it in the last year and a half of my life, and I’m starting to take care of myself; the last year just took me a very long time to learn it. It’s okay not to be okay. And if I’m tired, I’m tired. If I want to do something, I want to do it. I also learned that you will need something else. You always have to go for it. You have to ask, and you have to get it. And sometimes, if you don’t want that thing, it’s also okay. It’s not to the end of the world, just.

[00:25:53] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:25:56] Speaker B: And. And sorry for laughing that we are depressed, but I don’t know that’s our reality, too.

[00:26:01] Speaker A: That’s who we are as people.

[00:26:03] Speaker B: We’re going to be fine. We’re going to be fine.

[00:26:05] Speaker A: We are. Yes. Yeah.

[00:26:06] Speaker B: Yeah.

[00:26:07] Speaker A: Okay, well, let’s end there. And I don’t know what we will talk about next week. Maybe it might be language. It might be something else. We never know for sure because we don’t know what’s happening until we get there. But thanks for sticking in with us. And if you’ve got similar issues, first of all, I do want to say if you are somebody that is dealing with depression, there are. Yeah, there are ways to get help. And you can call your doctor, and I can only speak for what’s here in the United States, but we have mental health care hotlines. We have suicide hotlines. There’s always somebody. Even if you just have to reach out to a friend. Being here is better than not being here. So please, if you are somebody that’s dealing with suicidal ideation or, you know, extreme thoughts of harm to yourself, please, please, at the very least, reach out to us. And we could try to get you some help because we want you here with us.

[00:26:55] Speaker B: Definitely. And the same goes for if you’re living in Europe; always reach out. You’re always going to get help. And mental health or depression, it’s a serious disease. It can also. A high level of stress can cause physical disease. There’s no explanation, tiredness or sickness. Take care of yourself because you should take care of yourself. You like? Yeah. I don’t want to make it sad to say nobody cares. You should take care of yourself. But we should care for ourselves occasionally and put ourselves at the top instead of the bottom.

[00:27:32] Speaker A: Sometimes that means asking others to help.

[00:27:35] Speaker B: Definitely. Definitely. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely.

[00:27:38] Speaker A: All right, we’ll see everybody next week. Bye.

[00:27:40] Speaker B: See everyone next week. Bye.

[00:27:43] Speaker A: If you’re interested in using our database, joining us as a guest for an episode, or just saying hi, go to underrepresentedintech.com. See you next week.