In this episode, Michelle and Allie have a sobering discussion about the simple fact that reverse racism is not a real thing, and how believing it is can be the starting place to a lot of other harmful thoughts, words, and actions.
Episode Transcript
Michelle:
Hi Allie.
Allie:
Hi Michelle. How are you?
Michelle:
Okay. How are you?
Allie:
I’m good. I’m tired. It’s been a long emotionally stressful week, but talking to you on our podcast is always a highlight and I also love that we do it at the end of the week because it’s something to look forward to and I have stuff this weekend in my personal life I’m looking forward to, so not going to let anything else get me down but-
Michelle:
Good.
Allie:
We are going to talk about something a little stressful. All that being said, we’re going to talk about something a little stressful and frustrating on the podcast, but I think something that is really important to talk about.
Michelle:
Yeah.
Allie:
Because it’s a confusing topic for people who’ve not really sat down and thought about it. I feel like for people like you and me who make part of our living talking about these topics, it’s a no brainer, but I can understand how people get hung up on this. So I was really excited when you brought it up as a potential topic, because I think it’s super important to talk about.
Michelle:
Absolutely. And that topic is based on current events, but we aren’t actually going to dig into the current events. We want this podcast, especially this episode of this podcast, to be something that isn’t based on one event. We want this to be something that people think about in general because it’s not just tied to one event. This is tied to things that happen in every community, not just ours, but every community. And is something that needs to be discussed and it needs to be discussed from a perspective of somebody who is white and from this perspective of somebody who is not white. And so that we both are able to say why it’s not a thing.
And this is based, I tweeted last week and there was a lot of discussion on it, but what I tweeted was reverse racism is not a thing. And that racism has its roots in power and oppression and those with power seeking to continue to oppress those and keep others from having that power, it is always a power dynamic.
And it is a power dynamic that has a lot of its roots in hate of course, because racism is hate. But it also is, if you go back, and correct me if I’m wrong, because I am always happy to be corrected, but it goes back to power and the hate that has come from that power dynamic because when people who have been oppressed, specifically, let’s talk about Black history in America and the slave ownership.
We had people, white people, in a position of power oppressing the Black community and owning slaves. You cannot say then that Black people in that situation specifically were racist against white people because all the white people in their lives or people who were doing what they had. So if somebody says, I hate white people in that context, it was not racism. It was a reaction and a valid one to the situation and the oppression that was being done to that person in that situation. And so when I’ve tried to explain to people this week who say to me, “Well, when black people say that we can’t do this or can’t do that, or they don’t like us, that’s racist too.”
And I said, “No, it’s not racist,” because every Black person that I know, and I a lot of people, so every person I know, I don’t know a single Black person in my life who says I hate all white people, but I know people in my life, not friends, not family, seriously, but I know people in my life and some are on Twitter who specifically do not like any single person who is not a white person. That is racism. If you are basing your entire demeanor or reaction to an entire community of people based solely on the color of their skin, that is racism. If you are basing your reaction to and your feelings towards people who have been oppressors and how they have always behaved against you, that is not racism against those particular people.
And you’ve unmuted, so I’m going to let you talk now.
Allie:
I’m trying not to cry. It’s painful to have to think about why this matters because there is bias, there is prejudice, there is judgment against white people for sure. Those things exist against all types and facets of types of people. You can look at a white person and make judgements about whether or not they can season their food or whether or not they can dance, that’s racial prejudice. Prejudice is saying, I believe one thing about this group of people based off of little to no reason or actual firsthand experience.
I can look at you, Michelle, and say, “I bet she can’t dance because she’s white.” I don’t know anything about you and your ability to dance. I’m making that assumption. Yeah. That’s racial prejudice. That can be hurtful. That can be mean. There’s not a ton of place for that at times. But the oppressed cannot oppress the oppressor. Okay. I didn’t make that up, that’s a line from some article that I read forever ago, but it stuck with me. The oppressed cannot oppress the oppressor. I can’t exert power over you if I don’t have the power in the situation to begin with. It makes me think about when you hear, and this is also current events, but something so apart from this that I’m not even going to say what it is.
If a boss, if a business owner starts having an affair with an employee, it doesn’t matter if both of those people consent to that relationship, it doesn’t even matter if the employee was the one who initiated that relationship, there’s a power imbalance. The person with the lesser amount of power cannot exert power over the person who has more power than they do. That dynamic is still imbalanced. And so when it comes to the reverse racism thing, whenever I hear people say that, whenever I hear people say that reverse racism is a thing or, “Isn’t that reverse racism?” What that tells me is that they don’t understand the depth and the permanence that racial power held by white people in this country has exerted upon the Black community.
They don’t understand what that power is actually is and how influential it has been for hundreds of years. They don’t understand, even outside of this bubble we’re talking about, which is a Black community in America, they don’t understand what exists beyond that of the history of racism in other countries. They don’t understand the influence of colorism in other countries. Thinking about the caste system in India and how people destroy their bodies to look of a lighter skin, not to look like a European person, but to look like a lighter version of themselves because that skin color has more value. All of those things are so pervasive in our societies, in our communities, in our school, in our medicine, in our laws.
And when you look at these instances of people saying, well, if a company is trying to go out of their way to ensure that more Black people can be hired in order to offset the history of Black people being hired less, and they call that reverse racism, it’s so frustrating to me because it’s like you are only seeing the part of the issue that affects you. When you hear that, oh, this company is trying to hire more Black people, you’re thinking, well, then I’m not going to get hired. That’s all you’re thinking about. That’s all you’re prioritizing is, well, what about me? What about me? What about me? What about me?
And then layered underneath that is the assumption that those Black people being lifted up don’t deserve it. That’s also what I hear when I hear particularly the reverse racism argument around hiring, the subtext of that to me, whether the person means it or not, is the Black people who are being offered or given those positions don’t deserve it. They’re making an assumption based off of one piece of information, that they’re Black. They can’t fathom the idea that these are people who are highly qualified and are being dismissed preemptively because they’re Black. That can’t compute.
And to a degree, I almost understand it. I don’t agree with it obviously, but I almost understand it because it’s so asinine that it happens. It’s so painful to think about and to admit that it happens, that I can understand how it would be easy to just say, “I’m not going to believe that.”
The brave thing to do and the right thing to do is to say, “Yeah, that’s a really painful truth about the world we live in. Maybe I indirectly contribute to that, but I can choose to directly not contribute to it.” And what’s painful in our community is when people decide to retain that blissful ignorance and to not be an intentional, not to say solution because I don’t know that there is a direct solution, but not to be somebody who is intentionally going against what’s going on. That’s what’s painful to me.
So we are not here to say, all you have to do is X, Y, Z, this will go away. But what I would like people to… And also, the frustrating thing about this a little bit is for the people who listen to this podcast, anyone who’s listened to this podcast probably gets it. They probably understand. And I would really hope that if you’re listening to this podcast and there is somebody in your life that you know doesn’t get it, send them this podcast, listen to it together with them, offer to play it together. I don’t think that if somebody is confused about the whole reverse racism thing, if somebody believes that reverse racism is real, I don’t think that that’s a racist person. I think that’s a person with a racist belief that has been taught to them and indoctrinated into the way that they see the world.
Whether that’s through the TV they watch, whether that’s through their family, whether that’s through their religion. You almost can’t fault people sometimes for being taught all this wrong crap because it’s the way our country was founded. Our country was founded on these ideas, so it’s almost like I can’t expect people to know these things, but I can hope that they will decide to unlearn the things that are incorrect.
And so if you know somebody who has been taught these things and you think that they are willing to unlearn some of that stuff, please play this for them or please ask them to listen to it. Because all we can ask people to do is listen and be willing to learn from their mistakes. And that can be a hard thing to do if the lens through which you have learned these things is also the lens through which you see and explain the world to yourself, it’s a hurdle to go over. But people are dying because other people refuse to pass through this hurdle. And that can’t be.
That is a statement about the way that our world is right now. And I’ve heard people in this past week say, “Why are we bringing US politics into WordPress? WordPress is a global platform. We’re a global community. Why is US politics being added into everything?” And my answer to that, not to go into too much of what has been happening, but I think that the fact that there are so many people in this community that believe reverse racism is real, prevents us from being a global community. It creates barriers for people. It creates unsafe spaces because people won’t acknowledge that one idea that they have is wrong. They won’t acknowledge that one concept is incorrect and hurtful.
And so by that reality that we’re making for ourselves in this community, we’re limiting our ability to be a truly global community. Because I can’t tell you how many Black people I’ve spoken to this week who are like, “This is why I don’t participate in this community. This is why I don’t interact with people on Twitter. This is why I keep to myself and I keep to my own corner of things and why I don’t want to be involved.” And that’s heartbreaking. And it is directly because people refuse to listen and refuse to learn about something as simple as what we’re talking about today.
Michelle:
The other thing I would add to that is racism is not US politics. The fact that people-
Allie:
I hate that you have to say that.
Michelle:
I hate that I have to say that too. I hate that it’s made to be part of politics at all because we know that it is, it’s something that gets politicized. But racism is not endemic to the United States. Racism is a pandemic and it isn’t necessarily all against Black people. Let’s acknowledge that too. That is the primary, all ethnic minorities in the United States experience some form of racism, but some to greater extent than others. Other countries have different ways that racism is employed. And it may not be white people against Black people, but certainly it is in other countries experienced also. And to say that racism in general is a US political issue just means that where you live, your eyes are closed and you are most likely sitting in a very, very privileged position.
Allie:
And also, you are 100% right, the other side of that, say we live in some mystical planet earth where racism is only a problem in America. Say that that was true. Say there was no racism anywhere else, and that it was only a problem here. Why does that mean that you shouldn’t care? If I’m a part of this community just as much as you are, why does that mean you shouldn’t care about me? Why does that mean that you shouldn’t care about other members of the community? Why does that mean that… Because also, the thing I would like to point out, WordPress does, from what I understand, and if anyone out there has numbers that prove this incorrectly, please let me know, from what I understand, WordPress is very North American centric.
The grand majority of our, if you want to call it our workforce, the grand majority of our people power, the grand majority of our money comes from this part of the world. We have a lot of stakes in this part of the world. And I’m not saying that other parts of the world matter less because of that, but we, when I say we, I mean Black Americans, are just as much a part of this community as anybody else. And if we are being ostracized, attacked, threatened, disregarded, ignored, made to feel less than, that should be addressed by everyone. That’s what a community is.
And this whole, I keep wanting to bring it back to the concept of reverse racism because I don’t want this to be a soap box for however I’m feeling. That’s not what this podcast is. The reverse racism issue and the reason we want to talk about that and we want people to understand that is because it’s such an easy way to grab onto the what about me ism, it’s such an easy way to be able to dismiss what’s going on and say, “Well, that’s not really a problem because this is also a problem which affects me.” And it’s not fair, it’s not true.
And I just hate that we can come together and we can sit around all day long and learn about plugins from each other, but when it comes to something that actually matters, which is other people’s ability to function in society, in the workplace, on social media, we have to go through all these mental hurdles to figure out why we can’t talk about it, why it doesn’t exist, why it’s not a problem. It’s painful, it’s super painful.
And we all are affected by it in different ways and we all have our ways that we can deal with it and that we can try to feel like we’re doing something. This is me and Michelle’s way, Underrepresented in Tech was, and this podcast is partially our way of trying to stand up and do something about it. And again, if you are listening to this podcast, I highly encourage you to sit with yourself and try to figure out what you can do because we all have to do something. And that might be sharing this podcast with somebody, this episode, another episode that resonated with you. And if you have ideas, we constantly ask, we very rarely get ideas of things we can talk about that maybe you don’t understand. Maybe something you understand but are having a hard time explaining to other people, let us know and we will talk about it. That is what we’re here for.
Michelle:
Absolutely. There are three ways that you can be involved in discussions, or I don’t say it as a discussion, there are three ways that you can be involved in any movement. You can be part of the positive growth of a movement. You can be outspoken, you can speak out against racism, you can say reverse racism is not a thing, you could be anti-racist. You can be racist, you can be the person that everybody is trying to grow beyond. You can be the person that oppresses. You can be the evil person in the scenario. Or you can be the person that chooses not to do anything. We call those speed bumps. We call those barriers. It’s not so much that if you’re not with us, you’re against us. It’s just that you are impeding. If you choose not to do anything, think about that. Every movement forward is movement.
You don’t have to be me taking all the arrows on Twitter and having people attack me for being the white person who’s part of Underrepresented in Tech because you don’t all see the DMs that I get and that kind of stuff. But I, in a position of privilege am suffering way less, and I don’t want to even use the word suffer, but I think of suffering like suffer this things in arrows is where I get that from. But I was joking with Allie that my God, I’m tired this week from all this. I can’t imagine what it’s like to live in your skin. Because I’ve been dealing with this a little bit for a week. And that comes from a place of privilege to even say that as a white person. But go ahead, if you’re not with this, you definitely are a speed bump.
Allie:
And in the same token, I’ve been exhausted from it. I can’t imagine there are some other people who I’m just, I’m not even going to drag their names into it because they deserve rest and peace, there are other people in the community who have been dealing with certain things in a way more direct way than me who have been having direct conversations with people that I have not been involved in. And I’m exhausted reading those things. I’m exhausted reviewing that with them. I can’t imagine what they are going through. And that’s perspective. There’s always somebody out there, you can address what is upsetting you, but there is always somebody out there who is being affected more.
And we have to have empathy for each other. Both things can be true. You can be suffering and there can also be additional suffering. Both things can be true, but it’s important to acknowledge the suffering that is, I have to pick these words correctly, because this ties back to the reverse racism, being called a Karen is not the same feeling as being afraid to go out at night. I’m sure that there are, I don’t know if you’ve ever been called a Karen, Michelle, just as an insult. I could imagine being called outside of your name in any regard as a derogatory thing is not pleasant, is not fun, doesn’t feel good. But it’s important to acknowledge that some things are harsh, mean, mean-spirited, negative, and some things there is a beyond of that.
Both things can be true. Both things can upset you, but you can’t say, because I am suffering somebody else is not, or because I don’t see their suffering, that somebody else is not. That is a very narcissistic way to view the world, is that because I don’t see it, because I don’t hear about it, it doesn’t exist. You are such a small drop in the bucket of this planet earth, dude.
Michelle:
Absolutely. Absolutely. And I also just kind of want to address the word victim too. Early on when we first started this podcast, somebody tweeted about the fact that we have accepted donations, at that point it was even just donations of in-kind services, some software to get the website up and running, and accused us of profiting off the victims, referring to all underrepresented people as victims.
And so I want to talk just a tiny little bit, because I know we’re going to run against time here, but I want to make sure that we use language that makes sense around every topic. When somebody is directly attacked for their skin, when somebody is called out for their disability or whatever that under representation checkbox is for them, that person is singled out for that, they are being victimized, 100%. But let’s not also just include that every single person who’s in an underrepresented group is a victim because none of us have that victim mentality on a day to day basis.
Allie:
And it’s important the way that you said that. And I think that will help people. Being victimized and being a victim, where does the impetus come in both of those phrases? If I’m being victimized, there’s someone else, there’s someone over there doing the victimization. If I am a victim, that puts all the weight and pressure on me. So yeah, I completely agree with that. I feel victimized consistently in my life, but I do not ever feel like a victim and I don’t see myself that way. You’re completely right. And again, that’s one of those things where it can be hard to get, but if you just spent a couple minutes and think about it, it makes sense.
And that goes, we’re talking about reverse racism, what you just said goes well beyond race, that’s something that you and I can very much agree upon. And there’s lots of instances of that happening, particularly in our community. But yeah, thinking of the underrepresented is also another good way of thinking about that. The reason we called this Underrepresented in Tech and not Minorities in Tech is because underrepresented puts the impetus on whoever is not representing you. Whereas-
Michelle:
And not including.
Allie:
And not including, it doesn’t put the impetus on the actual individual person. It says you are a product of your environment as an underrepresented person. It doesn’t define who you are, but it is part of how you go through the world as being underrepresented. But it doesn’t define you as that.
Michelle:
Right. Exactly.
Allie:
And it’s the same thing with victim. And it’s the same reason, well, it’s a similar reason why I have to explain to people, you can’t say the blacks, the gays because those are parts of who we are, but I am not a black, I am a person, I am a Black person. I’m a person who is black. Going back to other episodes we’ve done, the words we use matter so much because they shape the way we think and see everything.
Michelle:
And it’s become a microcosm over the last three years too. More and more is done remotely, which means more and more is in spoken language and in written language than just being together and having conversations. And so, when you are writing specific words, that you have to employ more of what you would do in conversational language and really think critically about what you’re putting out there.
Allie:
Absolutely. I think I’m done talking about this today. I need to leave this whole week behind. I mean, as much as I can. I literally just tweeted about how I can’t turn off being Black, but I need to leave some of this behind this week so that-
Michelle:
Hopefully this podcast today will be a bright spot for people listening. If you are listening, again, we challenge you not only to listen all the way through to the end, which you’ve done if you’ve got here, but encourage others to do so as well. This podcast is not to entertain you. This podcast is to enlighten and educate and challenge. And we hope that we’ve done that.
Allie:
Absolutely. Alrighty. I hope that everyone can go forward through the rest of their day and their week in a positive, enlightened feeling manner. And we will catch up with you again next week.
Michelle:
We’ll see you then.
Allie:
Bye.