The Underrepresented Gender Team and More (feat. Anne McCarthy)

Welcome to the Underrepresented in Tech podcast, hosted by Michelle Frechette and Allie Nimmons. Underrepresented in Tech is a free database built with the goal of helping people find new opportunities in WordPress and tech overall.

Michelle Frechette:
So I usually start this podcast by saying Hi Allie, but Allie’s out today and I have a guest. So I’m going to start by saying, hi Anne, how are you today? Have you had anybody-

Speaker 1:
No, I cannot. I wish I could mimic that.

Michelle Frechette:
Have you ever had anybody sing to you to welcome you to a podcast before?

Anne McCarthy:
No, I need it every time now. This is the new norm.

Michelle Frechette:
Well, I am super stoked to be joined by Anne McCarthy today, and you don’t need much introduction in the WordPress space, but I’m still going to say, why don’t you go ahead and introduce yourself and tell us a little bit about what you do with WordPress.

Anne McCarthy:
Yeah, so my name is Anne McCarthy. I work for Automatic as a Product Wrangler. I’m a sponsor contributor through Automatic. The first role I had was developer relations. So I’ve done a weird number of things within the WordPress space and for the last three and a half years, I have run the full citing outreach program dedicated to getting user feedback and building awareness and providing education around phase two and the site editor, which has been really exciting. Also, I love to shout this out because it’s honestly something that brings me so much life. I also help run the Block Museum along with a set of contributors and that is all about creating art with blocks and what you can do with the block editor, which I just am obsessed with and it was a feature that worked Camp Europe and workings by lovely organizers who made that happen. And I’m not only just a techie, so I love to talk about kind of more of the art side of things. Yeah, that’s a little bit about me.

Michelle Frechette:
Yeah, there’s really something to be said for design, not just the technology that happens. You can build a solidly technical product and it could look like a warehouse or it could look like a museum. And so there’s a real big difference that way. And so I love when people get that and whether or not… I see that you straddle both sides of it, so you know the tech and you also have an aesthetic. But even for people who I can’t design with beans can appreciate the aesthetic of it and the fact that WordPress can allow you to do all those things. So I think that’s great. And I have seen the Black Museum and I think it’s a wonderful thing. Hopefully someday, I’ll create something to add to the museum, you never know.

Anne McCarthy:
Please,

Michelle Frechette:
I’ll work on that.

Anne McCarthy:
Yeah, I need to create more tutorials on that. It’s a side project and when I’ve spared time, I try to work on it and I’m like you. I’m like, I need to create more art. I need to create more art. So go to a local museum if you can, or look at artists online and get inspired, I guess.

Michelle Frechette:
Yeah, for me, my art is mostly photography and so I do a lot. I know people can’t see this. You can see the wall behind me. It’s all my own original photography, so I do a lot of that kind of stuff, but I have to learn how to turn that into a block. That’s the thing, right?

Anne McCarthy:
Yes, that’s actually one of the pieces I have in art museum is just a really simple duotone filter. It’s called splitting and it’s just a reflection shot and the duotone splits the image. So you could use photography just putting it out there and use the built-in tools that WordPress has, but yeah.

Michelle Frechette:
I love that. I love that. So what we want to talk about today, because here as Underrepresented In Tech, we have a new release team coming up, actually we’re in the midst of it right now. We’re going to be releasing, this team is an underrepresented gender team and this is 6.4. 5.6 was first called the all women’s release squad, then the all women non-binary release squad. I cannot tell you how much I appreciate the all encompassing terminology that we’re just using the word underrepresented, that we’re not trying to put people into boxes and figure out where on a spectrum somebody fits in and whether or not they fit in here. And so I think that’s wonderful.
But when we had the last one, regardless of what we called it, at what point in time, we had so much pushback in the community. Now I don’t know if I’m just not seeing it this time, I might have blocked and muted all those naysayers or if we’re just not getting as much this time. I think it may be a little bit of a combination of both. But what are your thoughts on the people who would say to us that, well, if it isn’t primarily men, it can’t be a good product because that’s what we heard last time and I’m sure there are some of those at least saying it under their breath, if not out loud this time.

Anne McCarthy:
Yeah, I’ll be honest. So I wrote a blog post about this as you do in WordPress, and I was really nervous when I posted it. I was expecting a lot of pushback and a lot of just vitriol. I am not on Twitter/X, I’m not on any social media for a reason. Part of it is it’s really hard to be so visible in WordPress and I like to have boundaries and I also like to do things outside of tech. And so yeah, I haven’t seen any huge pushback or anything that I’ve had to personally address. There’s been no hate mail so to speak, or messages in my contact form. This is not an invitation to start that, but I think I wonder if part of it is, and I don’t think the term is necessarily perfect, does it translate well? Is it internationally friendly?
This is one of the things that I went back and forth on, should we be calling it more of the trailblazer release? But that doesn’t really signal to folks like me that that release is for me. And so I think right now… And Alex Stein brought up a good point where he’s like, I’d love for the day where we don’t have to label releases certain things. I was like, yeah, same. I would love that too. And I think there was that pushback whenever I was also on that release squad, so for 5.6, and I remember there being a large amount of pushback and I wonder if that kind of pushback since because it didn’t really go anywhere and the word push project stood by the folks who contributing to that release if that’s continued. And so sometimes I think of it as that storming, norming, performing and 5.6 might’ve been the storming and now we’re maybe in a norming phase and performing phase where we can move past those initial… I think a lot of diversity, equity, inclusion and belonging conversations get stuck on 101 topics.
And to me it feels 101 to be arguing over this. It’s like we don’t talk about this with every other release, but this is 101. Let’s move on to bigger problems. Let’s talk about how we keep everyone who helped on this release squad in future releases. Why don’t we talk about that? And that’s where I think it’s really cool that this happened in 5.6 and my hope was 6.4 and part of how I’m trying to approach 6.4 is someone who I would say I’m a more veteran release squad member. I’ve been on I think every release squad since 5.5 or 5.6 at this point, which is a lot of release squads. I want to keep the people who are contributing and I want to empower folks to stay and to feel welcomed. And so, rather than doing a one-off release cycle, I do think it would be cool to normalize it and have it be like every release is more representative and diverse so.

Michelle Frechette:
Yeah, I agree with that completely. And I do think that this is what we’re in the norming phase. I do a lot of work in the DEI space through this podcast and through a lot of the speaking that I do at work camps and I’m seeing less pushback. And it might just be that people are like, oh, don’t talk to her. She’s got a strong opinion and you’re never going to get anywhere. Or it could be that we really aren’t a norming phase of things. And I think society in general, as political as people can try to make things are still either live and let live a lot of the time or just accepting or like us and be like, hey, let’s move it forward and let’s do that kind of thing. So I think that there’s a lot of merit to that… Actually, I am a social media person.
I think working in marketing makes me have to be and I just love it. So there you go but I posted nine years ago today I was at my first ever Word camp and I posted a check-in on Facebook where it tagged a map of this college we’re at, and I posted just two words, WordPress camp, I didn’t even know it was called Word Camp, and I was sitting right there. So I was at my first WordPress camp and sitting… Isn’t that crazy? Sitting there listening to all these people, it was 20 bucks at that point in time, nine years ago for a full day and lunch and coffee and the after party and all of those things, sitting there basically feeling like it was for free, getting all of this knowledge.
And still it took me years to realize that to contribute to WordPress didn’t mean I had to be part of Code and be a coder. And I think that we still have a little bit of a hurdle with that maybe especially with some underrepresented folks, that they don’t understand that you don’t have to be a coder. You could have confidence in other areas of what the whole open source project is. What would you say to people who maybe aren’t coders or don’t feel like they’re the strongest coders? How can people contribute to a release team and come in and join us and start to carry that momentum forward?

Anne McCarthy:
Yeah, that’s such a great point because I am not a deep coder. I think people probably maybe don’t know that or what have you, but my day-to-day, I can look at code, I can understand it for the most part. Some stuff I’m like, hey, can you explain this to me? But yeah, a lot of my value comes in communication, wrangling important conversations, moving things forward, prioritizing stuff, and there’s so many ways you can help. I’m going to name four things right now that actively today right now you could help with and you could help prepare for as pathways that are not code related. One, I just posted this in the 6.4 release squad. I would love help. I’ve been writing accessibility roundups for each release. Super easy, you go through track and GitHub or me, super easy for me. I would be happy to mentor you.
I should not assume it’s easy, but you’d basically go through and you curate all the items really to accessibility, bring them together, group them into things, and then work with folks on the accessibility team and Joe Dossin have been super helpful with that and work with them to basically get the posts out there and to highlight the improvements that happen and the work that’s happened with accessibility. So that’s one way. You’re not touching code at all. You’re working with folks, you’re talking about things, you’re categorizing it and you’re thinking about the audience and thinking about uplifting an area of work. Another thing that I actually posted about was around head around the official product demos for the WordPress release cycles. This one does require some level of, you need to have the capacity and time. I have gone back and forth on this with other… There are ways in which you could use the source of truth, which is another thing that I’ll mention in a second, to actually run this.
So I go back and forth onto whether this is something that I don’t want it to be reserved for sponsor contributor territory basically. I do think anyone who enjoys presenting on topics I do not, could be great at this. And it’s basically running the product demos during the release cycles to give an early look at what’s going on in the release and help prepare the community and build some excitement and awareness and marketing folks, anyone who likes giving talks and presentations, telling a story, anyone who’s good at design and can set things up. All of that is excellent, valuable use of information. It’s also at a really interesting scale. It’s very nerve wracking to do those and I think we just need to get more folks in there. Rich and I have done the last two and Mattias did the last couple before then and it’s a new area and so I want to see people take it in different directions and deliver high quality excitement to the community.
So that’s another one. There’s a blog post that you can probably lean to that talks about how to do that, working with marketing to get that into actually a handbook page of sorts. Another item is the WordPress 6.4 source of truth. I’m working on that right now. It’s a work in progress. I’ll up dropping it into the 6.4 release squad. But what I am going to say about that is compiling resources about the release and sharing it, whether it’s on your personal blog or in a community that you’re in, giving talks. This is kind of the go-to source. You could both help with the creation of it if you’re interested in that or using it to create your own material. So you don’t need to go searching everywhere. You don’t need to dig all into GitHub. This kind of pulls it all together. It tells you about the future.
It gives you resources including images and videos you can use or create your own, including links to GitHub and track make posts and all that sort of stuff. So it’s like your go-to source for the release. I’ll be releasing this one on September 26th, so stay tuned there. And then the last one is related to this, just creating material about the release, whether you’re helping with documentation, docs really needs help. Learn WordPress is a great source. I’m a faculty member there. It’s a great way to help. And one of the biggest things, I was just talking to some folks there is the need for people to create the resources. And so, someone created a wonderful… I think her name was Laura, create this awesome timid video on how to use a spacer block and she did this beautiful video. It was great audio.
So if you like to teach people stuff and to get in to the details, that’s also a great way to contribute back to the project that anyone can use and anyone can participate in. If you’re trying to get started, I think bright and personal blog posts about the release is also a great way, but those are the ones that are top of mind for me and kind of the space that I live in. I’ll mention one final one. If you’re a theme or interested in theming and a designer, there is a community themes initiative where you can create style variations to go along with default themes. And that’s a really neat way. I’ve been toying with possibly creating one. But theme JSON’s pretty quick to understand. It’s a low barrier entry and there’s tons of people there to help you and there’s a GitHub repo for that as well. So none of that is code, so you can dive on in.

Michelle Frechette:
I love that and I think it’s important. Like I said, because I don’t think everybody realizes that the open source project doesn’t just mean that you understand React and JavaScript and all of those things that are words to me. And that’s the end of how my understanding of it, right? To me, Java’s just coffee, that’s what I need to start in the morning. But yeah, there’s so much more to it. When we think about under-representation, so at Underrepresented In Tech, we are looking at all different kinds of underrepresentation in different groups. As a matter of fact right now, we have just finished recording this week, six different webinars with underrepresented groups. I’m never going to remember all six of them, but we had panel discussions, black men in tech, people who are disabled, people for whom English isn’t their first language. So technology, there are way more non-English speakers in tech than there are native English speakers.
But because the language of tech tends to be in English, there are people who are disadvantaged, especially when we are giving talks or we’re in conversations and they can’t keep up because we’re speaking so quickly for example. So there’s lots of different ways that there are underrepresented folks. We have the people in the LGBTQIA plus community who are underrepresented folks and the other two that I can’t recall off the top of my head, but keep an eye on our channel, we’ll have those all out over the next couple months. But what do you think of the idea of having underrepresented groups other than just underrepresented gender groups? Do you think that it would be good to have basically non-white groups or people just even if we do more than one group in a release squad, what would you think about the possibility of opening up future release squads? So things like that.

Anne McCarthy:
That’s a great question. I would love to see it. I think one of the things I’ve learned with doing diversity equity inclusion work mainly at Automatic is that you can bring diverse folks in, but if you’re not keeping them, you need to solve that first. And so I will be blunt in saying we need to solve that first. And I say that as someone who… I’ve tried to bring friends of mine in and I want to bring friends of mine in. I want it to be a place where I can say with certainty, you can contribute here. It’s clear, you’ll be supported, you won’t be met with screaming into the void. People will be there to champion the efforts that you’re championing. And right now, I think we don’t have enough documented. I think we don’t have enough mentorship. I think we’re working on all these things. Hari is running a wonderful mentorship program. I think I just saw that there’s a women in WordPress mentorship program.
I almost want to do a spoiler alert, but there’s a queer sponsorship of sorts that I’m trying to work on that’s not yet live. But I think there are ways in which we’re working on it, but before we kind of open things up too big, I’m hoping after 6.4 we can pause and think about the structures that we need in place that don’t just serve the people who have been in the majority and keep learning from these releases. But I think we could learn from it without it being underrepresented genders. I think we could do it in all sorts of different ways, and I would love to see that. I think I am just feeling like now is the right time for the second time doing this, to pause after this release and think about what we can shore up so we can do those kinds of things. But yeah, I would love to see it. Absolutely, would love to see it and would love to be supportive of those folks.

Michelle Frechette:
I love that, and I agree we have to have some scaffolding in place and then build the infrastructure that continues to support and is an inclusive space, not just a periodically inclusive space. I think that’s really important. I think back, and you really made me think of this, it was almost 11 years ago now, I think almost 12 years ago I was in Puerto Rico and I was at a family event and my stepmother was actually Dominican and Puerto Rican. And my father is a white guy or was a white guy. And when we had her family and his family in the same space, half of the family was in the living room and the other half of the family was in the dining room, their Spanish speakers in one place and the English speakers in the other.
And even though I didn’t speak Spanish, my daughter and I were like, well, they’re having more fun in the Spanish room, so let’s go in there and be part of that group. But it is true, you can put people in the same space, but that doesn’t mean that there’s a infrastructure built up for supportive integration of the people who are working together so that you don’t just invite everybody to the dance and the guys are on one side of the girls on the other, so to speak, to use a very old scenery there. But yeah, I agree with that a hundred percent and I think that we are at a place that we can start to build through that. And we’ve learned a lot in the 5.4. We’re learning more now in 6.4 or 5.6, 6.4, and I think that the time is right for us to be able to start to look at that and have some internal processes and some internal conversations. And they’re not going to be easy conversations necessarily because page is not easy. Growth is hard.

Anne McCarthy:
Yes, what would you like to see? I’m curious when you think about that in terms of the structures having been in the [inaudible 00:20:29] for a long time, what structures you also can identify. If it’s hard… I’m also, sometimes not great at speaking off the top of my head. Yeah, I’d love to hear.

Michelle Frechette:
Yeah, so one of the things as I’ve been speaking to people, I was fortunate this year to go to WordCamp Asia, WordCamp Europe and WordCamp US and a couple other ones in between. And one of the things that I hear from a lot of people is that the style of communication that we use, the infrastructure we have for communication, mostly being Slack, for example, is not conducive to everybody’s understanding and learning. And so I don’t know what the right way is, but I think that that’s something we need to tackle in order to be a more inclusive space as well.
I love that we can name ourselves whatever we want to name ourselves in Slack spaces, but it’s not always easy to find somebody or to know who you’re supposed to talk to about things and which Slack channel, there’s lock channels, there’s open channels. And so I think one of the things that we really need to work on is not necessarily the words we use to communicate, although of course that has to continue to get better as a community, but just what are we using for communication and how are we working with one another that way to make sure that everybody feels welcome, everybody understands how we’re communicating and how to move forward in a way that actually helps us build.

Anne McCarthy:
Yeah, that’s super interesting. And I know there’s been some work done. Accessibility did some work around testing out Matrix and possibly moving the matrix. And I wonder if that’s an opportunity in that move is to start from the ground up before we’ve even moved a bunch of people over to try that out. Yeah, I agree, you’re right. I don’t always find Slack to be the most helpful either. And I also don’t think me sharing too many words is helpful. I think I’ve gotten feedback on that before where it’s like, you’re too verbose. And I’m like, well, I don’t know. I’m all the details. I don’t know what to tell you. But we need people everywhere in between. So that’s another, I think call their contribution for sure. Because we need folks who are thinking about actually creating the spaces that we take for granted. So if that’s something that’s of interest to too, I think Michelle, you bring up some amazing points.

Michelle Frechette:
The other thing that I have been noodling around in my head for quite a while is that we need a concierge. We need a concierge center for WordPress. You go to wordpress.org and if you’re new, and even if you’re not new, but especially if you’re new, yeah, there’s a kind of start here or whatever, and you launch a new WordPress website. If you don’t know to click, you don’t know that there’s a place that says how to get involved. I would love for there to be a big old, choose your WordPress journey, start your adventure kind of thing, where we’re very clear about how you can get involved. You want to build a website? Here’s where you can do that.
You want to get involved with marketing? Here’s how you can do that. And yes, it’s kind of there, but it’s a behemoth. I would love for us to have this welcoming committee. I don’t remember what it was called, but when we first moved here, when I was 10, some lady showed up at our door with a basket full of goodies and coupons and whatever else. And that’s the way communities used to be, was just to have these little welcoming things. And I don’t know that we do that well because we don’t know who’s looking, but we don’t make it easy to find us either. So we’re huge but sometimes that creates its own issues. Does that make sense?

Anne McCarthy:
Oh, completely. Yeah, and who can do that work that’s sustaining and make sure that that welcoming committee is also supported and interconnected. Yeah, that’s really interesting. Because definitely, there was a period of time where there was a new contributor working group, I think mainly for developers that fizzled out unfortunately. But it’s okay. I think that groundwork is still in place and you can always pick up the mantle, so to speak. But it is really interesting to keep in mind too with the website redesign work that’s being done, because I know eventually that will hopefully make its way some of the make sites because they’re out of date. And that’s a great point. We take that stuff for granted, and if you think about all that stuff can be changed, we’re using WordPress, let’s upgrade it, let’s make it easier, the information architecture.

Michelle Frechette:
We used to call it a codex. That used to be called the Codex, and people would come and they’re like, “what’s a codex?” Even the word off-putting right? And it feels like maybe I’m not supposed to go there. And the first time I ever heard the word codex, I was reading the Dan Brown novel that takes… I can’t think of what it’s called now.

Anne McCarthy:
No idea.

Michelle Frechette:
Yeah, anyway, it’s the secretive thing where you have to break into it was this codex, almost like the CIA needed to be involved kind of thing. And then I heard it applied to WordPress and I was like, Ooh, if I click in there, am I going to be in trouble? That kind of thing. And now it’s like the handbook and it’s documentation, so it’s more approachable words and terminologies that we use. So we are growing and we are doing better, and you can’t just change on a dime because that’s not always the right way to do it either. So knowing the right pace to go forward, knowing how to be inclusive, but getting the right people at the table to help make that happen. Super important also.

Anne McCarthy:
For sure, yeah, I couldn’t agree more. And I think as you were talking, I kept going back to thinking about the English speaking aspect of this, and that’s another contribution pathway is translation. It’s like, for any outreach program, there were a number of folks who manage translations, which allowed people to participate. Otherwise would never be able to reach. And I think what you’re describing of having a really representative welcoming committee potentially across, and this gets really deep, but the different Slack, probably got Slack installs, the local installs. That’s a whole other conversation that I didn’t know about until I think a year or two into the WordPress community. That each local has its own slack and how good closed off that is and how do you reach them. So yeah, lots of good stuff here and lots of good things to think about.

Michelle Frechette:
And we’re not going to solve all the world’s problems today, but it’s a good thing to think about. And anybody who’s listening to the podcast will also have opportunities to think about ways that they might want to get involved too. So what are your hopes for next year? This is going to launch, and then what happens next with WordPress? Do you have a wishlist and what’s at the top of it of what you want to see happen next?

Anne McCarthy:
Yeah, that’s a great question. I have a wishlist in terms of what I’m going to call a backlog of issues related to phase 2 adoption. So my hope and part of evolving the FC outreach program in the next six months is around focusing on those adoption issues. So I think having a specific focus on that by three of my colleagues actually who do developer relations, they’ve agreed to step into that and continue the outreach program past the calls for testing, which I’m really excited about. But yeah, to me, I want to see a concentrated focus both on really pushing phase 3 forward and starting some of that work. And then also while that’s happening, taking a pause to bridge the gap. Like, okay, phase 2 is out, it’s matured, it’s there, the site editors, their block teams are there, but how do we encourage adoption of that and how can we have a specific focus on that?
I could get into micro details about what that means and the GitHub issues and links and the numbers of those, but I think that is where my brain is oriented is both how do we start building phase 3 out as soon as possible, but then also since phase three is not going to be necessarily for everyone, some features are and some features aren’t. I’m very keen on what we can do around adoption. And so if that rings a bell or is of interest, please share your feedback in GitHub. Also, the outreach program is going to transform into a space dedicated to that starting in October of this year. And so expect hangouts and resources and conversations and GitHub issues on that front.
I also am also very curious to see how we can change our approach to outreach and adjust it in light of how phase 3 is going to work. And so that’s something that I’ve been starting to toy with and trying to figure out as part of winding down the outreach program is also figuring out how can I take what I’ve learned from the FCR outreach program, which was an experiment, which I think worked and the community showed an appetite for it and find a way to apply that to phase 3.
And so that’s also on my mind. It’s something I’m looking forward to next year to figure out. It’s a big problem to figure out, and I’m starting to try to have conversations with folks and write down insights and do literally grassroots outreach to plugins based on doing searches in the plugin directory and being like, hey, did you see these posts come out? Your feedback is welcome. We want to hear from you.
So I probably will write a post on me core at some point in the next month, kind of summarizing what I’ve done thus far and what I’ve seen, and also just to get feedback from folks around what they want to see with outreach.

Michelle Frechette:
I love that. That’s great. And I always look forward to every year, the state of the word and hearing what’s coming and what kinds of things are happening. I’m particularly interested to hear which jazz artists will be the release for 6.4, and I know that that’s something that’s very, very last minute secretive and all of that. So whatever’s in Matt’s head around that, I’m excited to hear about those things too. But I really appreciate you taking the time to talk to us today, connect on thoughts, and I love just bouncing ideas off each other publicly even, which is a great idea, ways to get people involved. If somebody is thinking about getting involved in WordPress at any level, where do you suggest they start?

Anne McCarthy:
Great question. At any level, I would say either if there’s a local meetup group, I would go there. I also would go through learn WordPress. There are a number of folks who are WordPress contributors, and if there’s an area you want to grow and learn, they do run those kinds of sessions and learn WordPress just in general. They do a wonderful job with their workshops and stuff, and it’s a great place to get started, talk to people who are doing the kind of contribution you might want to do and get connected to resources. So I’m all about getting connected as soon as possible to a real person if you are for whatever reason. Yeah, if you’re for whatever reason, not able to jump on Zoom or anything like that, Slack is always an option. But yeah, I tend to send folks there.

Michelle Frechette:
I agree, very good. Well, thank you so much for taking the time. If you are listening, we will have the show notes and everything on this episode on underrepresentedtech.com. So if you are listening to it elsewhere, visit the website, pick up some details there. We’re going to put links and things like that, and we’ll also have a transcript. I really pity the person who is transcribing this because you and I are very fast talkers, but we’ll have the transcript out there so you can pick it up there and be on the lookout also for the release of 6.4 and for the good, bad, and the ugly, let us know what you think of all those things. And if you do need to be connected, reach out to me at underrepresentedintech.com and I will help you find the right path. Thank you again, Anne, thanks for being here so much. Really appreciate you.

Anne McCarthy:
Thank you so much for all you all are doing here, both WordPress based and outside of it. It’s really needed. So know that I see it, honor it, and I would personally benefit from it. So thank you.

Michelle Frechette:
I appreciate that very much. We’ll see everybody on the next episode.

Speaker 4:
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Speaker 1:
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