Transitioning in Tech

[00:00:02] Speaker A: Hello, Samah.

 

[00:00:03] Speaker B: Hello, Michelle. How are you?

 

[00:00:06] Speaker A: I’m good. How are you?

 

[00:00:08] Speaker B: I’m good. It’s really hot in the Netherlands. I feel I’m being baked or kind of in an introduction course to hell or whatever, but because in the houses, there’s no AC. There’s nothing.

 

[00:00:21] Speaker C: You.

 

[00:00:21] Speaker B: Just you and the heat, so. But other than that, everything is fine.

 

[00:00:25] Speaker A: I. I keep forgetting that it’s summer because I work from home; I live at home. I don’t go out much, and then I’ll go to get in the car and be like good golly, it’s hot out here. But luckily, I have central air in my home, so I’m happy. But as we teased out last week, in last week’s episode, we always say it’s possible that our guest would suddenly not be available, but she is available. Our guest today is Kiera Howe. Kiera, welcome to Underrepresented in Tech.

 

[00:00:55] Speaker C: Hi.

 

[00:00:56] Speaker A: It’s good to have you here. And, Kiera, I met you. I know. It was WordCamp Ottawa. Well, I believe it was WordCamp Ottawa. And I want to say it was, like, several years before the pandemic, maybe 2016. 2017. It’s been quite a while since we’ve been friends, and I am just happy to be part of your friendship crew. And so when I asked you if you would be able and willing to talk about your story, you said yes. And I was just like, please dispunch, as they say. I don’t know. I’ve been using a lot of my grandmother’s phrases lately, like, please dispunch.

 

It’s completely unrelated. The other one that she used to say specifically about John Wayne was that he could park his boots under my bed anytime, which I was like, Grandma. But anyway, that’s another story for another day.

 

But Kiera, you are, I will say, the first person that I’ve known as a friend who has transitioned. And so for you to come today and kind of be the person who can talk about this openly in WordPress and in tech, I’m just really grateful that you’re willing to come and be with us today. So thank you.

 

[00:02:10] Speaker C: Well, I do this.

 

[00:02:12] Speaker A: I’ve.

 

[00:02:12] Speaker C: I sort of.

 

Many years ago, as I was transitioning, I was sort of like, I really need to stay in the community because I know. And it goes with you. I’m the first one. I’m probably not the first one.

 

[00:02:24] Speaker A: You just. No, that I knew of is what I meant. Yeah.

 

[00:02:27] Speaker C: Yeah. And it’s funny because I see a lot of folks who transition, and then they just sort of blend in with the. With the, with the, with, you know, everybody, and they disappear.

 

[00:02:41] Speaker A: Yeah.

 

[00:02:41] Speaker C: So I tend to like just being here. I like being in places and, you know, people know, and it’s, uh. It is what it is.

 

[00:02:54] Speaker A: I hate that kind of. I know that phrase.

 

[00:02:56] Speaker C: It is.

 

[00:02:58] Speaker A: But what I love about you and what I see when we’re in friend groups together is that it’s a nonissue. Right. So that’s not to say that you haven’t experienced prejudice and other negative things in the greater community. I’m not speaking for you. I’m just making generalizations about the community as a whole. And I don’t mean our community; I mean the global community.

 

But I want to hear from you. I don’t want to put words in your mouth. So tell us, when did you do this, and did you do it publicly? Correct. You were teaching. I’m trying to remember.

 

[00:03:37] Speaker C: I was totally teaching. It’s funny because it’s with technology.

 

I have always liked it, especially software development.

 

As software developers, we’re all nerds, and we’re a little different from the rest of them. So you tend to get a lot of people who are just like, whatever you want to.

 

You want to play D&D. You want to do whatever you’re transitioning. Okay. Whatever. Sure.

 

And it has been, by and large, for me, like the communities I run in have been very much like that. It’s been so. And it was. I was teaching at a college in Canada, in Ontario here, and it was sort of. It was a year and a half coming, so I was teaching for quite a while. I was presenting as a guy for a period of time, and we got to a point where I was ready. Well, I was ready quite a bit before that.

It was. And, you know, I said it. I said it to my boss or my coordinator at the time. I was like, I’m transitioning. I’m coming back as Kiera in the new year. And, yeah, it was over. It was over a new year. So I got a nice New Year changeover. I can count from a set. Set number, too.

 

[00:05:14] Speaker A: You made the new year’s resolution, which very few of us have the ability to do.

 

[00:05:20] Speaker C: I did a New Year’s resolution and stuck with it.

 

[00:05:23] Speaker A: That’s right.

 

[00:05:25] Speaker C: But they were like. Because it was, I mean, in, in Canada, there’s. There’s a bunch of laws around, around trans, and, well, around a whole lot of things that have been around for quite a while. And, you know, that they, and then the schools in themselves, tend to be much more accepting to folks who are different and, you know, they’re the learning environment. It tends, but so they took the message that I sent, and they were like, okay, well, let’s do this thing. We’re going to change the name in our system. We’re going to do this and that. And the only thing we had was a bit of a thing where they couldn’t change my name in a payroll system until I changed it officially. Like I actually put in all, which took me like six months, which was nuts, but it was, you know, a lot of it was fairly, I mean, it’s from a professional life and a community. It wasn’t that big a deal, I can tell you. There are aspects, like, there are weird stories and things that it’s like, I go so especially around, around teaching around.

 

I tell the story periodically because it’s the most overt thing. Was this because I say it’s weird because it’s like people have always said women get treated differently in tech, in anything, but tech especially is like, we’re not expected to know things or like technology and the so forth. And I see that. I see that a lot, but it’s like, it’s always those,  was that like somebody be, is that somebody stereotype or was they just don’t know. Like, they’re just, for lack of a better term, stupid.

 

I, and so I had when I was teaching, we had a spot where our technology went offline, and we sent this email to the IT guy. We’re like this: another instructor and I were teaching together, but I sent this email to him, and it was after my transition, and we had interactions before transition before me changing my name on my email and all that. And so I sent this email to this guy and said, hey, we’re having a problem with the software that you manage. And he came back and was like, oh, yeah, it’s not a big deal. Just get your students to use FTP if you’d like; I’ll show them how.

 

And, I mean, now it doesn’t like it when I say it out loud. It doesn’t sound as sort of.

 

But it’s like I know how to teach my students FTP. That is not the point.

 

They are also marketing students. They don’t know. They can barely operate a WordPress, let alone FTP.

 

And. But it’s. It was just this. I went back through the emails because I had the records of all my previous emails, and they were toned. His responses to everything were way different than when my name changed; his responses to me changed. And it was really fascinating in a kind of terribly, terribly dark way.

 

And yeah, that’s the top story of the top of, like, what the heck? But by and large, people are generally pretty shoulder-shrugged. Okay, sure.

 

[00:09:31] Speaker A: How long ago was this that you transitioned? I don’t know what year it was.

 

[00:09:35] Speaker C: So that would have been. Well, 2016. January 1, 2016, is when I went, like, full Kiera left as one person.

 

[00:09:45] Speaker A: Came back as yourself, pretty much.

 

[00:09:47] Speaker C: I mean, I was transitioning in 2015 towards the course of that, and it was just like getting all the things lined up and trying to pick a name, which is really hard. It’s hard. All the people who’ve had kids are trying to pick the name for their kids. It’s like, how do you? How do you even choose a name?

 

[00:10:10] Speaker B: Why do you choose Kiera?

 

[00:10:12] Speaker A: Yeah.

 

[00:10:13] Speaker C: Yeah. Kiera just. It came down to just. I liked it. It sounded good. My previous name was sort of. It wasn’t one of the really popular names. 

 

From a statistical point of view, I think Kiera lands in the same sort of status statistics. It’s got a different. I was trying to find one with the same first letter, but I didn’t. I couldn’t find anything I liked. I think I started liking the ones with the a at the end, like the cure.

 

[00:10:44] Speaker A: Ah.

 

[00:10:45] Speaker C: I had a few options that had that, and in the end, I was like, it’s probably why. 

 

[00:10:55] Speaker A: It also flows well with your last name. I really don’t know.

 

[00:10:57] Speaker C: Yeah, well. There’s that. There are a few that I’d like. You know, you look at it like you don’t want that name. Name like that you. Whereas those weirds are like, Steven Stevenson’s. Like those. It’s like, who names their kid that?

 

[00:11:18] Speaker A:. My ex-husband.

 

[00:11:20] Speaker C: Sorry, sorry out there to all the. Steven Stevenson.

 

I didn’t mean to knock your name, but it is.

 

[00:11:28] Speaker A: I once said to my ex-husband about somebody that we knew that had one of those names that was like, Steven Stevenson. And I said it would be like if your parents named your sister Amy because our last name was Ames. He’s like, I do have a sister, Amy. And he did. And I was like, never mind.

 

I never thought about the fact that you probably. Most of us have middle names. Did you have to pick two names? Did you pick a middle name as well?

 

[00:11:55] Speaker C: Well, so my middle names are. My parents’ name was. My family has this, like, JP, in many of the names throughout. It’s kind of a generational thing. So I have Janice, Patricia, in my middle name. So I have this JP, and Janice is my mom’s name.

 

Yeah.

 

[00:12:19] Speaker A: And so, how was your family throughout this part of your journey?

 

[00:12:27] Speaker C: So they. Well, so they thought there was a change.

 

My mom. My mom’s been pretty supportive along the way. I mean, she’s had. I can tell she’s had a bit of her. She has a hard time remembering the pronouns and the changes, the name changes, and stuff. But she. She did that pretty. She fixed that really quickly. Really.

 

My extended family has cousins and things. They all. They were just all like, whatever. Sure.

 

[00:13:03] Speaker A: That’s nice.

 

[00:13:04] Speaker C: My dad’s been a little bit of a harder. Harder sell or harder thing on this one, so it is. That’s sort of an ongoing thing.

 

[00:13:20] Speaker A: But do you find that women are generally more accepting of this kind of thing than men? Okay, generally, yeah.

 

[00:13:29] Speaker C: I actually find myself a lot more comfortable when I tell people if a female-identifying person would. It tends to be more like, just like, more whatever.

 

[00:13:42] Speaker A: Right, yeah. Interesting.

 

[00:13:44] Speaker C: Everybody’s always so curious about it, too. And I don’t mind. I don’t mind telling people to talk about it and stuff. And people are, you know, I find. I find that the guys that I’ve told have a very, you know, they ask. They tend to ask those questions.

 

[00:14:05] Speaker A: The obvious question.

 

[00:14:06] Speaker C: Yeah, the ones that you don’t really want to answer. Then, the women will be much more into looking, like the social questions, the things that are much more subtle, maybe, or interesting, potentially.

 

[00:14:26] Speaker A: Yeah, that’s understandable.

 

I like that. So, excuse me, how did your students react? Were they kind of rolled with it, too?

 

[00:14:38] Speaker C: Students had no issue. I was co-teaching with another instructor and a couple of people who had issues with changing pronouns. Like I had, we had students from all over the world, right? And I know we had one direct student who was a bit off. They were a bit weird about it, but they were never directly weird to me. So it was like, so I don’t know how that’s the other. Of course, the other thing is that you don’t really know if people are, you know if people don’t use pronouns when talking to them one-on-one. Right. So it’s like, it’s. Unless they’re telling a story or something, it’s so you don’t often can’t tell if they’re actually being, you know, if they’re. If they’re obnoxious until, you know, you’re standing with a third person, and they.

 

But by and large, the students were just like, again, they were just like, whatever. Sure.

 

[00:15:37] Speaker A: I’ve seen posts that say things like if you mispronounce, misgender people, mispronounce people, that it’s an act of violence. I’ve heard people say things like, really extremist. And I’m wondering what your take on that is. Obviously, people make mistakes. Right. So, I know people in my life who’ve gone from gendered to non-binary pronouns, and I try so hard, but because I’ve known them for so long, as one way, I’ll say the wrong pronoun and correct myself. Right. Trying kind of thing. And I make mistakes. I’m human. But some people intentionally misgender and mispronounce people.

 

[00:16:16] Speaker C: Yeah.

 

[00:16:17] Speaker A: What are your thoughts on that?

 

[00:16:18] Speaker C: My thoughts are that if you’re actively being a jerk, I wanted to use a slightly.

 

[00:16:28] Speaker A: You can say asshole. We can say asshole on this? Yes.

 

[00:16:32] Speaker C: If you’re actively like, I am. I do not accept this person. I’m going to basically do the thing that they’ve asked me not to do.

 

That’s just an asshole move.

 

And that is. Violence is a strong word, but it is like, I’m not sure there’s a better word.

 

[00:16:56] Speaker A: It’s combative, at least, right?

 

[00:16:59] Speaker C: Yeah.

 

I said I have. I have people who, like, my dad, still screw up my pronouns, and it drives me crazy because it’s. There are moments, like, we were down in Florida at one point, and he. He was standing there at a restaurant, and he used He. He misses gendered me, and this is Florida. Like, I could get beaten up for him. Mispronouncing, like, putting the wrong pronoun, using the wrong. Like, it is not. It is. Like, you’ve got to understand. 

 

[00:17:40] Speaker A: It’s a safety issue.

 

[00:17:42] Speaker C: It is a safety issue for me, and it is. And so it’s sort of tough. And I do. There are times when it is violent, too, for somebody to say that, and then there are other times when it’s just a goof. It’s just a. Oh, I should.

 

[00:18:01] Speaker A: I have said I missed it again.

 

[00:18:03] Speaker C: Yeah, I.

 

Pronouns are tough for me, too. Like, I have friends who have different ones.

 

[00:18:18] Speaker A: We saw that, too.

 

[00:18:21] Speaker C: I just hit the table, and I was like.

 

[00:18:23] Speaker A: The camera went walking. Yeah.

 

[00:18:29] Speaker C: And it was a change to try and mentally be, like, no, no, no. This is the pronoun I should be using. So it’s like, mistakes are mistakes. I mean, it’s all. It’s. It’s really more intention than anything else. And so. And to some extent, intention includes being, like, not.

 

Not actually trying. You know what I mean? It’s like, you can be. You can make a mistake, but if you’re.  If it’s like, you know, seven years later, and you’re still making the same mistake, you clearly haven’t put a lot of effort into unmaking the mistake.

 

[00:19:11] Speaker A: Makes sense for sure.

 

So I’m talking all over Samah; I promise I’m gonna let you.

 

[00:19:18] Speaker B: You know, but you’re asking all the questions I want to ask. I love you, so just go ahead.

 

[00:19:24] Speaker A: So, last fall, in October, my daughter took me to a visiting school speaker series at UB, and she didn’t tell me until we got there who I was going to be hearing, and it turned out it was Amy Schneider, who was one of the winningest people on jeopardy. And is also a trans woman. And she’s very open about her experience, also, like, a ton of experience, not just transitioning, but also going through having been an addict and all of these. I mean, her book is amazing. Her story was amazing.

 

She made a statement that I really took to heart when she said; I hope that everybody has the opportunity at some point in their life to come out as something because the growth through that was amazing to her. And so, last year, Allie and I said. I called her like it was 9:30 at night. I’m calling her on the phone on the way back from Buffalo. I go; I have this idea that it’s absolutely lesser than people who transition or people who come out in the LGBTQ community, but for some of us, it’s not even safe to come out as an ally. And for me, that whole process of coming out as an ally felt dangerous within some of my own family and friends group. And so just that little kernel of understanding of what that was like for me, like, exacerbate that for somebody who is the person who is in the LGBTQ community, et cetera.

 

But what do you think of that phrase? What did she have to say about hoping everybody has that opportunity?

 

[00:21:02] Speaker C: Absolutely. I think we should all be aware of our own.

 

The things society says that we’re supposed to be, and then. And then come out as like, no, that’s not me. I know. This is. This is not me. You know, forget you all. 

 

And it is. It is absolutely. It’s been absolutely amazing. 

 

I did so much research, and it, you know, I was.

 

It was like the psychology of people, and I was learning, and it wasn’t even just like my own self. It was like, I’m identifying pieces of myself that are. I can see in other people, and I can. Like, it’s actually becoming the world. The world got shiny and. And, you know, sparkly for a bit. Like, where it was like. Like, you know, it was really interesting to watch the. The what. What other people like, how they presented themselves, and how there are so many different.

 

Like, I’m watching, you know, looking outward at the world, but it’s. It is, um.

 

It’s. It’s just like you learn so much about yourself in this process, and it is. And if you can’t. If you can’t accept yourself to that, you’re not what everybody says you are. Like if you can accept any part of yourself that is like, you know, I like to be a giant nerd if you like to play D&D. But, you know, all your friends think that’s stupid, like, come out as a, as a D&D player. Like, everybody should just spend. Spend their life learning, growing, and transitioning into something else. 

 

And you know, except that you don’t know everything, and everybody and the world tells you a lot of stuff. That is just the way it is. We’re never, you’re not to. You’re not to deviate from that.

 

That.

 

And you got to sort of like, yeah, if you can. Yes, yes.

 

[00:23:21] Speaker A: The bottom line is yes.

 

We also had an opportunity to ask her questions via Twitter with a hashtag, which was very interesting. And my question actually got asked during the moderation, and my question was, and I think, I assume the answer, but I think it’s important for other people to hear the answer. And I could be wrong, of course. But my question to her, and I’m going to ask you as well, is how important the role of allies was through that process, through the transitioning process?

 

[00:23:55] Speaker C: It is fundamental to have some friends who are just like, except allies. They’re just straight up, you know? Well, friends took me shopping because that has always been a thing to go into. Shopping, in general, has never really been my thing. Still, there was, I think it’s, you know, as a, from a subconscious level, I was like, to go into the women’s section, presenting us as a guy previously was like, it was terrifying to me because of the judgment that I thought, like, people are going to be, like, whispering and so, and so forth and to have such, have somebody at my side. We could go in and go. Buy dresses, and we went to. When I. Just as a new year’s, there was a new year’s event, and we went and bought dresses for this new year’s event at a store, um, obviously a store.

 

And, yeah, it was just like, I don’t know that I could have done that without my friend there. And to be like, you know, somebody. Somebody’s there with me, and I’m not having to fight this feeling alone in my internal fears. Right. And there are always powers in numbers. So, you know, you get together with, you know, the friends, but there’s a whole lot of statistics around that say, that say, you know, supportive. Anything supportive is good for people’s mental health. And it’s absolutely huge to have that from an ally’s point of view, being able to sit, being able to, like, in school, to be able to, like, with the, when I was teaching, to have my coordinator who was just like, I send him an email, and he just went, like, took care of it. Like, he just took care of all the stuff that needed to get taken care of to make that happen. So it was like, yeah, if you, you know, if you don’t have people who are just like.

I don’t know how that would work for me. Like, I don’t know where I’d be without, you know, all of the people who have sort of been along the way. And one of the really fascinating things I read a while back was that there’s probably a whole bunch of surveys about detransition. It’s very political, where people are like, they use it as an excuse not to give us access to whatever, but the detransitioners, they talk about it. The actual statistics come about. I think 3% was the most recent study I heard, somewhere between 1 and 3%.

 

This is better than a lot of cancer treatments.

 

[00:26:57] Speaker A: That’s a very small number.

 

[00:26:59] Speaker C: Yeah. So if you talk about, like, 97% of people don’t regret, don’t have, don’t be transitioned.

 

But the interesting thing is that there were some statistics on those 3% of people, and that’s like, a lot of them detransitioned, not because they regretted it. They just got so much hate from their community and the people around them that it was untenable to keep going that way. Like, there’s a percentage of. So this percentage of the 3% who is just, they’re still trans. They’ve just been beaten down, unfortunately, too. And they didn’t have the people around them who could stand up for them. Right.

 

[00:27:44] Speaker A: So, yeah, Samah, I’ll keep asking questions, but if you have some, I want you to jump in. I don’t want to talk to you.

 

[00:27:51] Speaker B: Yeah, I will jump in. I have a few questions related to the work.

 

I know you have been reading, of course, about you that you really contribute significantly.

 

[00:28:05] Speaker C: Words.

 

[00:28:06] Speaker B: Yeah. To the WordPress community by speaking and organizing at Wordamps and developing custom solutions and plugins. How did your involvement in those diverse groups or communities help or influence your career and personal growth? And was it easy for a transgender woman for you to do it? Because I know, how can I say it? It is really difficult sometimes to enter the community itself. From my own experience, this community I entered was so difficult since I come from a different culture, and I came here living in Europe, trying to be part of the community, finding someone because I don’t know; we humans always find someone who looks like us in some place, and then we feel more welcome like we sense of belonging.

 

How did that involvement in the WordPress or tech community help you with your personal growth, and was it transgender at the same time you were trying to be in the community? I know it was very difficult.

 

So, yeah. How did it really help you in your personal growth?

 

[00:29:30] Speaker C: Well, I’ve always been a giant geek, a giant nerd.

 

[00:29:35] Speaker A: I can attest to that.

 

[00:29:37] Speaker C: Even as much as I tried to hide it when I was younger, it was there. So I’ve been in computers forever. I don’t know that I’d ever do anything different.

 

And that was when I was in my twenties. One of the things that I did was a whole bunch of research on trans people, and this was 20 years ago. So, if you think about the early 2000s, I did all this research about this, and it was like. In the tech community, you would never get permission from a doctor because you were a computer person and a computer. Computers were male. Like, that was the guy. It was a guy’s thing. And it was like, I think I may have chosen to take as long as I did to transition because it was like, I’m not going to stop doing the thing that I love to because, you know, like, I have the choice of like, you know, that because I’m going to get kicked out of it like that. That was. And it was tough.

 

So, I mean, as far as being in the community, it is.

 

I mean, the personal growth is.

 

I’m unsure how to define what I would do. Would I like it? Because it is. It is basically like the. Just having that community is. Is growth. It’s. You know it is.

 

Gives me something to do.

 

[00:31:27] Speaker B: Yeah. Awesome.

 

What are you expecting? I know that the prescription is becoming more diverse and more inclusive. As we talked, Michelle and I had a couple of episodes about changing dates, hoping for the future to be more accepting for all attendees to even think about the food that everyone is feeling welcome that, hey, this is my dietary requirement.

 

Religiously or for health reasons.

 

What do you think of the WordPress community? Because I know best what they should do or could do to make WordPress more diverse for transgender people.

 

What advice can you give them based on your experience, difficulties, or obstacles? Maybe you are still facing them and think the WordPress community should improve.

 

[00:32:33] Speaker C: The community in WordPress? It’s been great. Like, I mean, they have. I haven’t had any real. Anything. Any issues they’re putting out, like pronoun stickers and stuff on things, are great. It’s like having. 

It’s been, um. I’m not sure other than just sort of, like, just be. Keep being accepting and keep doing that. I can’t speak for others, other communities, other folks.

 

I mean, just keep these things in mind. And keep being open. And I had this. The story, like, you pick you. You pick your organizers and your team leaders in a way that is not. It is not obnoxious because, like, so we had Toronto, pre-pandemic Toronto, the Toronto WordCamp. We got this. We got this leader, and he did a. He wrote a story about these two guys making a bad joke at a Python conference. I think it was Python making a very essentially sexist joke. And this article said, well, boys will be boys.

 

And he wanted it like this. That was what I thought the article looked like; it’s not such a big deal. Why are you making it such a big deal? It’s like, well, it is a big deal, and even bigger when the organizer of a WordCamp puts this garbage where everybody will see it. It’s one of those things that you just keep picking. You pick the people with that empathy, that idea that everybody deserves a spot. And, you know, there are things that, you know, especially around, like the, if you don’t see it, it doesn’t mean it’s not there kind of thing. Like they have to accept that, you know, if you’re being told that this is not, this is problematic, and that you don’t argue with that from. Argue with the people who say it’s problematic because they know.

 

[00:35:07] Speaker A: You wouldn’t tell a person in a wheelchair that they don’t really need curb cuts or an elevator. You wouldn’t tell somebody who has a nut allergy that they should go ahead and eat those walnut cookies. Right? So why are you telling others how they should be accommodated in the curb-cut thing?

 

[00:35:28] Speaker C: It’s like, it’s not even like, oh, you don’t need it. It’s like, oh, it’s going to be too expensive to do that. It’s going to be too hard. It’s too much work to make that happen. It’s like, how about you just, you know, figure out how to do it and, you know, it’s like rather than upfront, that no, upfront is always those people who do that. No, upfront where you’re, you say, like, we need this, or, and this goes for everything. This is not just within the various communities and things. It’s like you have somebody come up to you with a problem and say, I would really like to change XYZ, whether it’s a software problem or whether it’s a diversity problem or whatever, I want to change this to be like, oh, it’s going to be too hard to do that. Oh, no, we can’t do that. To put that no right out front is such a bad move. And I see it all the time with people in all kinds of different scenarios. And it’s like, well, don’t say no. Figure out how it could be done. And then you can figure out, like, okay, maybe it’s going to cost a lot, and maybe we can figure out a way to make it cost less, or maybe we can figure out a way to raise capital.

 

Yeah, and yeah, there’s always a way to do everything. You just have to be open to it. And it’s, and it comes down to that. In a lot of cases, in stuff like this, you pick your leaders who are willing to accept that they don’t know everything and that they will go and figure stuff out. Right.

 

[00:37:10] Speaker A: I think it’s good to have leaders that will advocate for their community members, and that’s. I think, for me, that’s the bottom line. Right. So, you know, I use a mobility device. If somebody tells me, I’m sorry, our WordCamp will not be accessible to you, that’s unacceptable. Right. So.

 

[00:37:28] Speaker B: Absolutely.

 

[00:37:29] Speaker A: I mean, and that’s a very blatant, obvious thing because there are laws that protect people to have access who don’t walk.

 

[00:37:38] Speaker C: Right.

 

[00:37:38] Speaker A: So that’s that.

 

Some countries are doing better at enacting laws to protect people in the LGBTQ community, specifically trans individuals, but we’re not there yet. I think having leaders in places other than government who will advocate for me, you, and others is super important. So I’m really glad you raised that point.

 

[00:38:01] Speaker C: Yeah. And it is like, in Canada, I’m blessed to be in Canada with all the. We have a whole lot of legal protections, and we tend to be. And. But it’s just. Unfortunately, I look at the states and I see the sort of patchwork and the things that are and aren’t, and you can’t.

 

It’s like, I’m blessed that Canada has.

 

But we have a potential leader coming, the potential leader of one of our parties, who wants to make a whole bunch of changes to look a whole bit like he’s right-wing, shall I say?

 

[00:38:40] Speaker A: No.

 

[00:38:40] Speaker B: I hope it’s made to the better, not to make it to the worst.

 

[00:38:44] Speaker C: Yeah, well, it’s like. And I don’t know how people don’t see the betterment of some of the stuff like you. If we want to go back to the curb cut thing, it is like.

 

[00:38:53] Speaker A: Right.

 

[00:38:53] Speaker C: Well, now all the people with strollers have. Have a way to get up on the curb, not just it. And maybe that wasn’t discussed right at the beginning when that was put forward, but it benefited everybody. It’s the same accessibility. The arguments we have with. With the web and with everything. You know, if you do it right, everybody benefits. So it’s like, if you include everybody, if you include trans people in the. In your legal structure, then you know, there’s.  And then you get other people on the edges of that who can. Who can be themselves, too.

 

[00:39:35] Speaker A: So, yeah, one thing, I get told a lot. And I just smile and say thank you because I don’t ever want to tell somebody that’s the wrong thing to say, so to speak. But people will tell me all the time when they see me. Me, traveling and in my scooter and all that, like, oh, you’re so brave, or, you’re so inspirational and that kind of thing, but there’s really, truly no bravery in just not being able to walk right. So, that’s not a brave thing.

 

[00:40:01] Speaker C: And I’m sure that, too. I get people who are like, oh, you’re so brave. If you’re doing this, it’s like, well, I don’t know how else I could.

 

[00:40:09] Speaker A: I have done this exactly. But at the same time, putting yourself in positions like Florida requires a certain level of bravery. So, you have to live your authentic self. But there are still places that are not necessarily safe for you. Just like there are places that I can’t.

 

There’s a gorge near us that has. It’s beautiful waterfalls. I did it as a kid. It is all steps. There’s no way that anybody who uses a mobility device could ever go there. It is not safe for me. I cannot drive my scooter down flights of stairs. Right. Kind of thing. And so I realized that it’s different for you because you can’t just look and see that something is not a safe space.

 

[00:40:53] Speaker C: Yeah. Yeah. You don’t know until you’re actually.

I have the benefit of blending like I can.

 

I can blend in. Nobody really knows that unless you’re getting misgendered publicly.

 

[00:41:11] Speaker A: Those things, except for that.

 

[00:41:13] Speaker C: So, you know, I can. I do have a lot more.

 

[00:41:16] Speaker A: You sure do. Yeah.

 

[00:41:17] Speaker C: From that respect, to go and be where I want to be, right?

 

[00:41:22] Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely.

 

Any last questions or thoughts, Samah?

 

[00:41:27] Speaker B: Not at all. Not at all.

 

[00:41:30] Speaker A: Anything. We didn’t ask you what you wanted to say, Kiera.

 

[00:41:35] Speaker C: No, I think. I mean, I just.

 

I just talk and, you know, we like that. I like that.

 

[00:41:43] Speaker A: That’s why we’re friends. I’m a talker, too.

 

Thank you so much for spending time with us today and being willing to tell your story. I know that for some people, that’s not easy. And so I’m glad and grateful that it’s easy for you. I don’t want to say it’s easy. I’m not putting words in your mouth, but I appreciate your willingness to be so open about it. So, I really do appreciate you and your friendship. Thank you.

 

[00:42:09] Speaker C: I appreciate that.

 

It’s easier to be open when you have a whole bunch of awesome people around you.

 

[00:42:19] Speaker A: Yep, absolutely. Shout out to your friendship circle in the WordPress community in Canada because they’re pretty awesome people. I like them, too.

 

[00:42:28] Speaker C: I should put an asterisk because I represent one person. There are a grand number of trans people, and they all look different, and I. They are different and present differently, and it’s, you know, you’ve seen one, you’ve seen one, but.

 

[00:42:45] Speaker A: Exactly. Right. Before we started recording, we said that you are telling your story, not every trans person’s story, and we understand that. We want people listening and watching this to understand that as well. Kiera story is Kiera story. And it might not be Joe’s, Samantha’s, or somebody else’s story, but every story you hear contributes to a better understanding of our world and its people. So thank you.

 

[00:43:13] Speaker B: Yeah, thank you. I hope to see you one day in real life at WordCamp.

 

[00:43:21] Speaker C: You should have come to WordCamp Canada. You could have gone home with a fancy little.

 

[00:43:31] Speaker A: I have one on my keychain. All right, thank you. I don’t know what we’ve been doing the last two weeks I’ve said, hey, this is our topic next week. We haven’t discussed that yet, so we don’t know what our topic will be next week. We’re always open to ideas. So, if you are listening or watching and have ideas you’d like us to discuss, we would love to hear about those. So, thank you again, Kiera. Thank you, Samah, for being my co-host with the most, as they say.

 

[00:43:54] Speaker C: Thank you for having me.

 

[00:43:56] Speaker A: It’s our pleasure. We’ll see everybody else in the next episode of Underrepresented in tech. Bye.

 

[00:44:01] Speaker B: Thanks, everyone. Bye.