When Women Don’t Meet Your Definition of Feminine

[00:00:00] Speaker A: Welcome to the underrepresented in tech podcast, where we talk about issues of underrepresentation and have difficult conversations. Underrepresented in tech is a free database with the goal of helping people find new opportunities in WordPress and tech.

 

Hello, Samah.

 

[00:00:22] Speaker B: Hello, Michelle. How are you?

 

[00:00:25] Speaker A: I’m good. How are you?

 

[00:00:27] Speaker B: I’m good. It’s August. We finally have summer here in the Netherlands. I’m really happy. And last Saturday was the pride parade. And in Amsterdam, usually around the world, you do it walking, but not in the Netherlands we do the parade in the canal. We were just like everyone in the boat, happy dancing and going around. And at Yoast we had an amazing boat, and we were watching everyone, which was amazing. We watched like eighty big boats going by.

 

[00:01:00] Speaker A: It was really awesome.

 

[00:01:02] Speaker B: Yeah, it’s really awesome.

 

[00:01:03] Speaker A: I want to visit Amsterdam someday. That would be so fun.

 

[00:01:07] Speaker B: You should. And you should do it in August and could also attend the parade.

 

[00:01:12] Speaker A: We’ll have to make plans for maybe next year. I don’t know. We’ll see.

 

[00:01:15] Speaker B: Yeah.

 

[00:01:18] Speaker A: Especially if I get to see Yoast where you work and all of that and meet people. That would be so fun.

 

[00:01:23] Speaker B: That would be awesome. I will take you on a special tour in the Netherlands and the HQ.

 

[00:01:29] Speaker A: Sounds good to me.

 

Well, you came up with today’s topic, and I love it. So why don’t you tell us a little bit about what we’re going to be talking about today?

 

[00:01:39] Speaker B: Yeah, I’m going to say the title because the title triggered my brain, and I watched the story live, but I’m going to say the title. The title of the story or what we’re going to talk about today is women can have high testosterone. That doesn’t make them men or transgender.

 

The story is about the Olympics today. There’s an Algerian boxer. His name is Iman Khelif. She became the center of attention, and people accused her of not being a woman. What happened? She had a match with an Italian lady, and after 47 seconds, she was a physically strong woman.

 

She was able to win, but then they started saying that she was transgender. She’s not a real woman. This is not the first time this has happened. It’s. I think this is the second time it has happened with her and also with another boxer, a boxer from Taiwan. Her name is Lin Yu-ting. I hope I pronounced the name right.

 

They had a lot of.

 

I don’t want to say, but let’s say it’s bullying because that’s what’s happening now. They are accusing her of not being a woman.

 

Both were born females, raised as girls, have always identified as women, and have always competed as women in boxing or championships.

 

And now, in the Olympics, there’s a lot of big deal about it. And I found it very ridiculous that we’re coming to a woman. She was; I don’t want to say she was born as a woman. She identified as a woman, and she has all of the rights and everything that you have to start proving yourself. You have to show your certificate, your birth certificate, and your identity. And I find it crazy. At the same time, there will be a lot of accusations against a lot of athletes. I want to talk today about the common misconceptions about gender in sports and how to accuse someone of it.

 

Because if they’re doing a good sport, then you must be a woman, and you must be a man. Or how we can dare to tell someone you are not this gender; you are the other gender. I’m really happy that the IOC, when I mentioned IOC, the International Olympic Committee has done well, amazing in this issue related to Iman after the Tokyo Olympics, would have many of those accusations. And it makes me feel sad that people have to start defending like, no, I’m a woman. I’m a real woman. Like. And I felt sad because she. One of her comments was that she was not feeling beautiful. She doesn’t look like a normal woman, but she’s a woman. And that it’s a very horrible feeling that you have to defend yourself.

 

I go back to the IOC. They publish a framework on fairness, inclusion, and non-discrimination. And for the first time a lot of people are saying this is the first time. The process includes athletes affected by these regulations and their experiences.

 

I want to talk today: why attack women? Because I never thought of any from the male athletes. First of all, they say he’s good at gymnastics. He must be a woman. He, or, or he, he’s doing something. He must be a woman. And at the same time, why does it matter? Like, if, if it’s like the test trial level too, uh, if someone says, I identify as a woman to do a test to prove like, yeah, your testosterone is high, that you’re not a woman, and at the same time, women can have a high level of testosterone.

 

[00:05:41] Speaker A: What.

 

[00:05:42] Speaker B: What will you do with non-binary? So, is there a test some people want us to do? And I found it a very crazy topic to talk about because you feel as if they call transgender women something insulting. You’re a transgender woman. But why? What’s the issue? And I know we are still a little bit backward in sports because women competing were not accepting any transgender women. The only woman by birth or who identifies as a woman or grows up as a woman. All of this has to be combined. And now also, they do start doing a test for your DNA and your testosterone level, which I found crazy.

 

Yeah, that’s it. 

 

[00:06:27] Speaker A: Like, oh, that’s all. That’s an easy thing. And it should be, right? It should be in a lot of ways. It’s interesting. So when I woke up this morning, I don’t remember. I scrolled my email; I scrolled news. I don’t remember where I saw this, but, like, her family was even showing pictures of her as a child to show her in dresses and raised her as a little girl because she’s a girl. She’s a woman. Right. And so I remember when this first happened, like, within minutes, it was all over Twitter and Facebook. And it follows on the, you know, the opening ceremonies where they had the feast of Dionysus, and everybody was like, that’s the last Supper. And, you know, you can’t do that to God and Jesus and all of these things. And it’s crazy how immediately some people are triggered by these things. And I thought it was just in the US because I think we’re crazy here. Right? And I feel like I’m constantly, like, I’m the salmon swimming upstream against all the crazy right-wingers in the country.

 

So. But this was international, and it wasn’t just Americans saying anything about this. And furthermore, when she competed in the Tokyo Olympics, she lost to many women. Like, she lost five or six different bouts and rounds. I’m not sure. I’m not. I don’t follow boxing. It’s. I don’t like to watch people beat each other up, but it’s a sport. And that, you know, whatever. Anyway, there are already memes like, that Mike Tyson wants to fight her and all of these other things. None of it is true. He didn’t say that. Like, it’s this poor woman. Not only does she have to face this in the media and face this at the Olympics and walking around, but she has to go home to a place where being transgender is illegal. And not that she is. And I’m not saying that she’s doing anything illegal, but now people in her hometown might start doubting. And hating, and who knows, right? Like, there’s potential for those things. And I just. My heart breaks for her. It does. I think that.

 

I would never want to be in that position where somebody is so accusatory of something that really affects me at the core of my identity and who I am, right? So, like, I am assigned female at birth. I identify as a woman. I have produced offspring. Not that that makes you a woman, because it does not. But I’m just saying all of these things have cemented who I am for me. If somebody came to me and were like, well, you know, you code too well, so you must be a man. That would be the equivalent, right, in our world. And we have heard that as women in tech. First of all, nobody ever accuses me of coding too well because that is not my thing.

 

Some women code incredibly well, and other men in the past and maybe even today have said things like that, like, where did you get this code from? And, you know, you must be lying. Somebody must be doing this for you. Like, women can’t code this. Well, you’re in the wrong industry. Like, we’ve talked about misogyny before, right? And I think that’s what’s at the root of this as well. It’s definitely a misogynistic thing. Right? So, it’s misogyny to accuse a woman of not being pretty enough. It’s misogyny to accuse a woman of not being feminine enough. It’s misogyny to say that she’s too strong to be a woman. Like, all of these things. It’s crazy.

 

She has elevated testosterone. Everybody has.

 

We all have hormones within us. Every woman has testosterone, and every man has estrogen. It’s just that usually there’s a higher balance of one or the other, but that is not always the case because we are not perfect people, not turned out by machines.

 

And that’s to say, everybody is perfect in their way, 100%. So we won’t be just carbon copies of each other. Not. Genetics plays a huge part in things.

 

There’s just so much. There are even studies that show that men who eat higher levels of soy end up with higher levels of estrogen. So, like. And end up with gynecomastia, I think is what it’s called, where they. They grow boobs.

 

I don’t know what it’s called. Anyway, we can look it up. It just comes down to the fact that I have said over and over and over, over the years, how many, however many years, we’ve had underrepresented attacks. We have to believe people first.

 

And when somebody tells you who they are, you believe them, period.

 

That’s all there is to it.

 

[00:11:31] Speaker B: The thing is, it makes me feel sad because when she finished the game, when she started crying, she was not; it was not happy tears. It was more that she was sad because of the way they were, people were talking and they were screaming at her and she, her father, he was screaming, she’s a female, she’s a female, she’s a woman. And that really breaks her heart because I believe also it is really, there’s a mental impact on her. And also, I was reading it why is judging at least gender by testosterone level, not the right way. It’s a very complex issue.

 

Testosterone can be, as you said, women and men, it can be high levels up and down. And if you have a high level of testosterone, then your tissue and muscles, have more muscles. But also doesn’t mean if you have a high level of testosterone, then you are a man. And also a lot there are women, as, with female genitals, with they feel women, they grow up as women and they have DNA. So all of genes, sorry, all of this, this is really combined really heavy things on her because now someone is questioning you and bullying you as woman.

 

And honestly, because you don’t look pretty, you don’t look like a woman, you don’t look like I have this feminine thing. And that is, I felt really sorry for her because also, we’re living in an world where you cannot shift and delete those things online. She has to live with it. She has to defend herself. This is not the first time or the second, and sadly, I know we don’t talk about politics, but Trump was talking about her. Like, come on, you know, everyone was talking about her. 

I’m really happy when the news, I don’t know if it’s like a news channel or radio in Algeria, they were defending her, that they, they make, there were fun memes about her, that she looks like a devil, that she’s strong with the muscles. And another person. She’s like a nice lady’s boxing, and she’s scared. And I hated the way they put her. And then immediately, this Algerian, again, podcast news channel, they made her photo as an angel.

 

She’s something really good in Arabic culture. And I was really happy that they were open-minded, but I felt sorry for her that she has and her family to prove that she’s a girl, putting photos, as you said, online.

 

And we don’t have all of us to be beautiful. We don’t have all of us to be size zero. We don’t have all of us to look so feminine. And it’s okay to have a high level of this throne. Yeah.

 

[00:14:33] Speaker A: Yeah. Absolutely. And, you know, we say we don’t talk about politics. I think people participate in politics. People aren’t politics. So this woman is not politics. She is not political. She is not something. She is not a pawn. She is not something that we should be arguing about. She should be lauded for her expertise and her I. The time energy, and training that she has done to get to where she is today. If you look at her records from the last Olympics to this Olympics, she has improved amazingly. Right? So, why are we questioning it now? Why did we not question it when she was losing?

 

Right? So it’s ridiculous. But people are not politics. Human rights are not politics. People politicize them, but they are. I am not a politician because I’m a woman. I am not a politician because I’m a disabled person. I am a human being, first and foremost. And we need to remember that about everyone we’re talking about. And like I said, believe them when somebody tells you who they are. Sometimes, they show you horrible things about themselves. I believe that, too. Right? If you come to me and tell me you are a horrible person, I’m going to believe that also.

 

And that’s not to say people don’t lie. Of course, people lie. And you find out who they are later. But I always. We have this character. Have you heard Pollyanna? This character, Pollyanna only tries to see the good in people. So it’s a Disney thing. It’s a book from a long time ago. And this girl, Pollyanna, just like she makes these old curmudgeons, they. Softens their hearts because she sees the good of people. I try to be that person, see the good in people, and believe people when they tell me who they are until they prove otherwise. Right? And so please don’t politicize women. Please don’t politicize, you know, any underrepresented person because we’re not politics.

 

[00:16:34] Speaker B: It is so crazy, the world. You have to start. We start defending our gender. And you have to show evidence. Just because I hate then the haters, they always hate. They always hate people. And this. I know this comment started flaming after she lost in front of the Italian boxer.

 

I’m not blaming her, but I blamed the government, their right wing. They said something, and they started accusing her, no, she’s not a woman. She’s a man. Because she beat her in 47 seconds. And you’re true when you say it. Like, when she was losing, no one said, like, okay, she has more muscles than a normal-sized woman. She’s like, this. Nobody talks about her high testosterone level and a lot of things.

 

I found it very weird that we are in 2024, and women are accusing publicly they are not women. And we have to start showing our birth certificates, our photos, and people bully us online and then start talking about the way that we look. They know you have to be transgender and you have to defend yourself as a transgender, but also now you have to defend yourself as a woman. It’s like you cannot win in any single direction. Um, I found it, uh, yeah, I hope the, uh, uh, um, the Olympic committee, they did a really good job in replying. I’m really happy about it. And I didn’t. I didn’t watch the Olympics. I don’t know if she won or something. I didn’t watch it yesterday. Perhaps she won, like, something gold. 

 

[00:18:09] Speaker A: I hope she has something nice to take away from it, to, like, soften all the. The, you know, hatred as to go home with a medal would be a good thing. Right? 

 

[00:18:21] Speaker B: Yeah, but it’s funny because you see a lot of athletes, women, you can see their bodies. They have amazing muscles. Now, I was making fun with my husband. I honestly. She has better shoulders than you. She has more.

 

She has more structure, arms, and muscles. He was looking into me, and I should work out.

 

But they work out. It’s not like they work out 1 hour a day. They spend all of their life working out and eating specific food.

 

They make sure their hormone levels; they don’t take medication. And all of this because if you have a high level of testosterone and you take medication, that is going to cause you a lot of also other issues. Otherwise, tiredness and hormones. When they go up and down, it’s so crazy to your body. So.

 

[00:19:08] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. And any woman who’s ever had a baby can tell you how crazy your hormones can be when they’re disrupted by something else. Right? Imagine if that wasn’t even medications and things like that. That is just. Yeah. I can only imagine how crazy it would be.

 

Yeah. It’s just one of those things that we just do.

 

Just let her be. Come on, man. Just let her be.

 

[00:19:30] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah.

 

[00:19:33] Speaker A: When I, when, my gosh, this was a long time ago now. This is maybe twelve years ago. My youngest brother was five years old at the time, and they lived in Puerto Rico. I was down there the in the hot tub with them, right? So I’m in my bathing suit, and my little brother looks at my arm, and I’m a plus size person. So, you know, I got big arms, right? And he said, wow, you must be so strong. I was like, oh, honey, it’s a big difference between muscle and fat, but thank you.

 

And I was thinking about that this week, too. You don’t know some until you’ve lived in somebody else’s, you know? And we can’t do that. Right? We don’t have the ability to swap brains and see what it’s like to be somebody else. So, we just have to lead with empathy and be good human beings.

 

[00:20:24] Speaker B: Yeah. And maybe it’s also when you grow older, I reach a level that I stop caring because you get me as a woman, we get a lot of judgment about how we look, about our weight. If you’re too skinny, then you should eat more. If you’re overweight, you should know you cannot say you should lose weight. They told you you should be healthier and skinnier in your face. You know, you cannot. They told you, like, and if you have curly hair all the time, they give you this comment, someone, you have to straighten your hair all of the time, who you are, that you find. Some people tell you to change yourself. And all of us, I. I don’t say all of us. I will speak personally when I’m in; I usually have very curly hair. They used to call me mop, or some men make fun of my hair, saying that there’s spider knit in it or whatever. And also, yeah, but when we were young, that can cause confidence in you.

 

[00:21:23] Speaker A: Yeah.

 

[00:21:23] Speaker B: And you start saying, yeah, I want to change my hair to make it straight. I want to do this; I want to do that. And I now reach a level. I don’t care. This is me. If you like me, sometimes I have a bad hair day, sometimes a good hair day. If I gain weight or not, I’m the one who is working. I’m paying for my food.

 

[00:21:42] Speaker A: It’s my health.

 

[00:21:43] Speaker B: Please do not interfere. Yeah, yeah. But it’s still found it difficult that if you’re too pretty, you’re seducing people. And if you’re not looking feminine, you have to prove that you’re a woman.

 

[00:21:55] Speaker A: So I gave up on that long ago, too. I am who I am, you know, I own makeup, but it’s probably so expired I should throw it out because I never wear makeup.

 

I just don’t care. Right. There was a time in my life when I thought before I became who I am today. When I was younger, there was such fear put in you that people would think you were gay if you didn’t behave a certain way. And when I was a child in the seventies and eighties, that was a death sentence because we weren’t the, we weren’t the community that we are today. And that’s not to say that we’re perfect because we definitely, and we talked about this, need to do better as a community. But, like, you know, oh, you don’t wear makeup, you must be gay. Oh, you have really short hair; you must be gay. Those kinds of things were very prevalent when I was growing up. And so that was always planted in the back of my head. That that’s a negative thing. It’s not. But I just grew up in a very sheltered area, and I don’t even think my mother knew that those were the kinds of things that kids were saying, because she might have said otherwise, of course, but those kinds of things are ingrained in us very early on so that we behave and look a certain way. And so when somebody like this boxer doesn’t behave and look the certain way, people immediately say, oh, she’s winning. There must be something wrong. There must be something. She must be hiding something. And that’s a terrible way to behave around people, to jump to those conclusions immediately.

 

[00:23:27] Speaker B: Absolutely, I agree with you. Just accept each other, respect each other, feeling. And I don’t know why people don’t put themselves. Just imagine your place for 30 seconds, but swap places. How would you make you feel? I do it all of the time. And I always feel like, you know, I know you cannot say this, you cannot do that. Because if someone said it to me, it would hurt me because she’s a human being. Now I’m scared in the future; we started telling, this is a human being, and this is alien. I don’t know what his name is. There’s an American swimmer. His name is Michael Forbes.

 

[00:24:03] Speaker A: Michael Phelps. Yep.

 

[00:24:04] Speaker B: Phelps. He was, like, swimming like a shark. I used to call him the shark. And they said genetically he has, his lines was bigger or something that, that he could, he’s really good fat and very fast swimmer.

 

[00:24:18] Speaker A: And his body doesn’t create lactic acid like, half as much as everybody else. So he doesn’t feel pain as quickly when he swims.

 

[00:24:27] Speaker B: Yeah. So we didn’t say that. Are you a man, or are you’re alien? Nobody reached out. Nobody talked to him like that. Now you’re alien. You need to prove that you’re a human being. 

 

[00:24:38] Speaker A: Yeah. There’s been a different set of rules for women and men since the beginning of time. And that’s an unfortunate thing because it only holds back people who have great desires and amazing abilities to be able to affect their world positively.

 

[00:24:53] Speaker B: Yeah.

 

[00:24:54] Speaker A: Yeah. Anyway, one of the things.

 

[00:24:57] Speaker B: Cheer for her. Cheer for Iman.

 

[00:25:00] Speaker A: That’s right. That’s right. Congratulations, Iman. We’re very happy for you.

 

Absolutely. We’re behind you all the way.

 

There’s another story that’s come out of the Olympics that I want to talk about next week, which has to do with mental health. And I think that that affects us in every walk of life. But in the tech field, we see that as well. And so next week, we’re going to talk about Simone Biles and how she took a mental health break during an Olympics event for her benefit how that affected her what people said about that, and how we can help support one another through those kinds of things. So we’ll see everybody next week. 

 

[00:25:41] Speaker B: See you everyone next week. Bye.

 

[00:25:45] Speaker A: If you’re interested in using our database, joining us as a guest for an episode, or just saying hi, go to underrepresentedintech.com. See you next week.